Turbo86

iTrader: (2)

im in the never-ending search for the perfect wheels for my wrx.

see i found them a long time ago. the new prodrive gc-010g wheels in british gold. if you have never seen these wheels they look very much like the volk ce28n wheels. the problem is i can't get them. they are way too much money $540 a piece to be exact. the prodrives made by rays engineering are forged, but what does forged exactly mean, why are forged wheels so expensive?

it seems if you want anything by rays engineering you should be prepared to spend $400+. does anyone know of any places to get their wheels hella cheep? i just don't get it.

thanks

wrexr

iTrader: (6)

Here is some helpful info on cast and forged wheels:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/te...cc_wheelguide/

Casting
The quality of cast wheels varies dramatically, depending on process, and sometimes on variables beyond the control of the manufacturer, such as ambient temperature or even humidity. In general, pressure casting, in which the metal is pumped into the mold, is better than just pouring it in. Castings tend to be porous -- some carburetors actually leaked fuel through the metal, with no crack or visible flaw present. Porosity is bad, because it means there are places where the metal isn't in direct contact with more metal on all sides. Voids, which tend to form in the spaces between crystals (a chicken and egg situation), are where cracks begin. Larger, chunky grains may beget larger voids, and cracks along crystal boundaries will have farther to travel. All these points mean that cast wheels must contain more metal to achieve an acceptable strength, and are thus heavier. Still, cast wheels can be made to a high standard with attention to quality processes. The vast majority of alloy wheels are cast, and provide many years of good service.

Forging
Forged wheels take advantage of what happens when metal is cold worked. Cold working doesn't necessarily mean you'd want to touch the materials while they're in process, it means the procedures are done at a temperature below the point where the metal starts to melt and regrow a new crystal structure. Just as the spaces between a metal's crystals may hold flaws, the crystals themselves are full of imperfections called discontinuities. They may take a variety of forms, but discontinuities all share one important quality. By traveling through the crystal lattice of the individual grains, they allow the metal to change shape without fracturing like a diamond. When a load is applied to a metal object, it deforms slightly. When the load is removed, it regains its original shape. This happens because discontinuities move a little, and move back. If the load is high enough, the discontinuities will move until they reach the edge of their crystal, or until they run into another discontinuity.

Generally, discontinuities move one atom at a time, and their movement is guided by the regular structure of the crystal. If a discontinuity in the structure runs into another, the regularity is interrupted, and they may become tangled, and can't return to their starting position. This has two effects. 1) When the load is removed from the metal, it will not return to its original shape. 2) The metal is more resistant to deformation in the future, because there are fewer discontinuities available to move around. This description of the process is a single case of what is actually happening by the billions.

What we can measure is the average of them all. The idea behind forging is to get, on average, the right number of discontinuities tangled around each other, with crystals oriented in the right direction, so that the metal is very strong and resistant to further deformation. This is a delicate balance, because too much cold working makes the metal brittle, so that it fractures instead of absorbing loads. You can see how this works for yourself: Bend a paper clip back and forth many times until it breaks. It begins soft, then gets stiffer, before finally fracturing.

Fikse installs the fasteners on its wheels from the rear, giving a smooth appearance to the outside of the wheel.
Forging also changes the shape and alignment of the crystal structure. When molten metal solidifies, its grain structure is non-directional, amorphous, grains in the sense of "grains" of sand. As metal is forged, these grains are stretched in the direction of deformation, making them more like the "grain" of wood. The metal is formed so the grain goes in the directions where strength is needed most. Think of particle board versus real wood. One is cheap, heavy, and easily formed into a variety of shapes. The other is strong and light. The forging process, because of the vast pressures involved, also compacts the metal, eliminating porosity and the voids that can be a source of cracks or corrosion. The result is that less metal is required to achieve a given strength, meaning lighter, stronger wheels can be made

-Hope this helps

Turbo86

iTrader: (2)

kinda helps...

that doesn't mean they should be so over-priced!

jdepould

iTrader: (2)

they cost significantly more to manufacture, hence the price difference. i wouldn't necessarily call all forged wheels over-priced, because you get what you pay for.

HomerJay

iTrader: (3)

Rays wheels are expenisve to begin w/. I don't think $540/wheel is that much for the GC-10's. Why do you need these wheels? Are you going to race? You can buy much cheaper wheels and they would probably do everything you need them to do. Buy a set of rotas.

Turbo86

iTrader: (2)

wheels are one of the few things you buy for looks.

obviously not performance so much because so many people wouldn't have rotas.

if rota made a design knock-off of the prodrives i would get them.

porter_mann

As a general rule, forged wheels are the way to go for quality (abet more expensive), but, there are good casted wheels out there that can come close to the quality of forged wheels at a fraction of the cost. Just be aware of poorly casted wheels.

Incidently, prodrive P1 wheels are casted.

BLITZSTI

iTrader: (2)

540 is a good deal... i have spun forged 3 piece wheels, i was looking for quality over the price.

http://www.jtuned.com/content/templa...=288&zoneid=16

HomerJay

iTrader: (3)

Tarmac II's are direct knockoff of Prodrive P1 wheels and if you want purely looks, what do you care about forged wheels. The Prodrive P1's look very similar to the GC-10's and they are cast not forged.

enigma

While the things posted are largely (if not entirely) true, the real reason why these wheels cost so much is because that is what the market will bear. Businesses do not price based upon cost and profit margin, they base their price upon the amount of money they believe they can extract from the buyer. It often surprises me how many people think otherwise so let me explain.

If my company decides to get into the business of selling wheels, part of my design process includes the selling price point (done with a lot of market research) before the first wheel is ever made. Once I manufacture these wheels and they become popular, I might discover an ingenious new method of production that reduces my cost, I reap the extra profits and certainly do not pass along the savings to you unless I have to do to competition. Since the competition is doing the same thig, that is not a problem as often as you might think. When the economy is strong, design and desire win out over price so competitors don't have to cut their own throats to make a sale. When the economy is weak, the less desireable manufacturers die out leaving fewer sources (along with fewer buyers) but that tends to balance itself out and keep prices static.

Why are they so over priced? They aren't. They are priced exactly where they need to be. If they weren't, they would cost less or go out of business (this doesn't include imprts where exchange rates can disrupt what I said but even then you'll notice that they don't fluctuate like currency).

As for which wheels to get, I like the SSR Competitions. $389 gets you a good forged wheel that is about as light as they come. As for looks, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and function (in tis case light weight and strength) is most beautiful to me. They also look pretty good to my eyes. I'm about to put a set on my car with some very light weight tires. I'm intersted to see what it feels like to go from 16" to 17" and shave about 7lbs per corner at the same time.

Good luck in your search.

scorp88

I went through 3 sets of casted 17" on my camry. The last set I got on was from IS300 and weighed about 26lb each. It looked good, but not exactly helped the car to move, especialy from stand-still.
Now when I got my WRX, I went on eBay and got me nice set of used BBS off STI.
That and Pirelli P-Zero=32lb per wheel. We all know that 2.0l engine with 8:1 compression is not ecxactly a rocket off dead stop... So, the goal was to loose as much rotating weight as possible. As added bonus my wheels are still round despite driving through Brooklyn every day.
Bottom line: it's better to get one set of forged wheels then to keep buying casted once every few moth (or after hitting next pothole.)

Turbo86

iTrader: (2)

i actually think im going with weds sport wheels sa-90

i like the look of them and i hear theyre pretty light and handle well. plus they're 17x8 so you get the extra width.

are 17s more for performance? is that why they're so popular?

scorp88

Wed's are too expencive and too heavy. You could prolly get a good set of forged for a little more.
I think 17s are more for looks then performance. On the street anyway. Some people say because of smaller sidewall it's less prone to laterial movement or something like that.
But the key here is weight!!! Rotating usnprung weight that is. If you want me to explain in terms of mechanics I can, but I think it's kinda common sence.
If I had enough money I'd go with 16" SSR Coms and some pirellis.