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Democrats: Health care is a right

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Old 07-18-2009, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
I don't necessarily want government intervention.

But the private sector doesn't have a viable solution for those who can't afford their care. I also think that this is a false dichotomy that the government will either stay completely out of the health care industry or it will completely control it. That's not going to be the case.

However, I do stand by my assertion that conservatives rarely have a solution and would rather maintain the status quo and blame everyone else.
If a person has a problem, they are most likely to be "blamed" for said problem.

Personal responsibility is very lacking in this country; my problems become your problems and you need to fix 'em.

Imgine ff a politician stood at a podium and said, "Paul. The reason you can't afford health insurance is because you lack intestinal fortitude to better yourself in this country of opportunity."

As long as people look to others for assistance, we are all ****ed.

Case in point.

How many times have you seen on i-club some n00b asking what a particular Check Engine light code is for?

Good ****in God.....people can't even do a goddam google search for themselves...they have to be spoon fed info in this day and age.
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Old 07-18-2009, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
But the private sector doesn't have a viable solution for those who can't afford their care.
The solution is simple. It's the same "solution" available for people who want a 4br house with a pool and a 2 car garage, but can't afford it. Or for those that want a 911 GT2 but only make $30k/yr. Do better in life so that you can afford it. Otherwise, you're SOL. Going back to my original point, what makes health care any different from all the other commodities? If you quit thinking that there is such a thing as "the right to be healthy," I think you'll see that health care is no different.
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
If a person has a problem, they are most likely to be "blamed" for said problem.

Personal responsibility is very lacking in this country; my problems become your problems and you need to fix 'em.

Imgine ff a politician stood at a podium and said, "Paul. The reason you can't afford health insurance is because you lack intestinal fortitude to better yourself in this country of opportunity."

As long as people look to others for assistance, we are all ****ed.

Case in point.

How many times have you seen on i-club some n00b asking what a particular Check Engine light code is for?

Good ****in God.....people can't even do a goddam google search for themselves...they have to be spoon fed info in this day and age.
Originally Posted by kyoung05
The solution is simple. It's the same "solution" available for people who want a 4br house with a pool and a 2 car garage, but can't afford it. Or for those that want a 911 GT2 but only make $30k/yr. Do better in life so that you can afford it. Otherwise, you're SOL. Going back to my original point, what makes health care any different from all the other commodities? If you quit thinking that there is such a thing as "the right to be healthy," I think you'll see that health care is no different.
We are all aware of sources to this particular problem (some people can't afford the current insurance being offered). We know this much. But we also know that we will always have janitors and fry cooks. If a janitor moves up the corporate ladder, someone will take his spot at the bottom. Those people at the bottom are still going to have medical treatments at the expense of everyone else. One way to break this cycle is to actually offer cheap health insurance. That way at least most adults will be able to fund their own insurance instead of paying higher rates to cover those who can't afford their visit to the emergency room.
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kyoung05
The solution is simple. It's the same "solution" available for people who want a 4br house with a pool and a 2 car garage, but can't afford it. Or for those that want a 911 GT2 but only make $30k/yr. Do better in life so that you can afford it. Otherwise, you're SOL. Going back to my original point, what makes health care any different from all the other commodities? If you quit thinking that there is such a thing as "the right to be healthy," I think you'll see that health care is no different.
Being healthy is not a right, and I never said it was. Talk to your local congressperson about that topic.

However, being health is not exactly a luxury item either. Let's say you're a poor ditch digger and you break your arm on the job. Now you can't dig ditches nor can you afford treatment. As a country, do we just say "oh well, do better in life next time"?
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:46 PM
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A society of people that are only concerned for themselves is not a society at all; our greatest achievements in history have been accomplished through collaboration and shared vision.

However, I believe that no government or group should be able to force anyone to do anything. Compulsory state socialism is theft, at a minimum.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
A society of people that are only concerned for themselves is not a society at all; our greatest achievements in history have been accomplished through collaboration and shared vision.

However, I believe that no government or group should be able to force anyone to do anything. Compulsory state socialism is theft, at a minimum.
I thought you were an anarchist?

Separate question, Do you believe Adam Smith's invisible hand theory is the be all end all solution to societal problems, or do we actually require government funded initiatives to fill in the gaps?
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
I thought you were an anarchist?
How did you get from what I wrote that I'm not?

Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
Separate question, Do you believe Adam Smith's invisible hand theory is the be all end all solution to societal problems, or do we actually require government funded initiatives to fill in the gaps?
I believe that Adam Smith is frequently misrepresented. A much smarter man than I put it far better than I can:

I didn't do any research at all on Smith. I just read him. There's no research. Just read it. He's pre-capitalist, a figure of the Enlightenment. What we would call capitalism he despised. People read snippets of Adam Smith, the few phrases they teach in school. Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is. But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. And therefore in any civilized society the government is going to have to take some measures to prevent division of labor from proceeding to its limits.

He did give an argument for markets, but the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty, markets will lead to perfect equality. That's the argument for them, because he thought that equality of condition (not just opportunity) is what you should be aiming at. It goes on and on. He gave a devastating critique of what we would call North-South policies. He was talking about England and India. He bitterly condemned the British experiments they were carrying out which were devastating India.

He also made remarks which ought to be truisms about the way states work. He pointed out that its totally senseless to talk about a nation and what we would nowadays call "national interests." He simply observed in passing, because it's so obvious, that in England, which is what he's discussing -- and it was the most democratic society of the day -- the principal architects of policy are the "merchants and manufacturers," and they make certain that their own interests are, in his words, "most peculiarly attended to," no matter what the effect on others, including the people of England who, he argued, suffered from their policies. He didn't have the data to prove it at the time, but he was probably right.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:33 PM
  #128  
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I will state it again:

Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned

You want health care insurance?
Then go buy it?
Can't afford it?
Make changes in your lifestyle so you can.

My solutions:

Why not treat health insurance like car insurance?
If you live a risky lifestyle, eat **** food, etc, you pay more.
Lower health risk = lower cost to consumer.

Deny treatment...yes, really...in certain cases.
A person in the ER with the sniffles gets the boot.

Any scheme that forces me to support others is bull****...at best.

Look how ****ed up Medicare is being ran.
Welfare has done more harm to the downtrodden than any corporation.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:51 PM
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You still don't get that you already pay for other people's bull****?

In terms of being a society, I personally believe we have a vested interest in the overall well being of the general population in this country. That "me-first-screw-other-people" kind of attitude didn't make this country great.

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Old 07-18-2009, 06:20 PM
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Any scheme that forces me to support others is bull****...at best.

Look how ****ed up Medicare is being ran.
Welfare has done more harm to the downtrodden than any corporation.
Slavery is the word you're looking for.. Any scheme that claims your work for someone else's benefit is slavery (call it what you want)

Welfare was the downfall of both personal responsibility and parenting in many minority communities.. literally paying the mother not to have the father around..


You still don't get that you already pay for other people's bull****?

In terms of being a society, I personally believe we have a vested interest in the overall well being of the general population in this country. That "me-first-screw-other-people" kind of attitude didn't make this country great.
Yes we do have to pay for other peoples bull****, and we're all the worse for it.
But you are wrong the "Me first" attitude is exactly what made the US powerful in the first place.. Me First= The American Dream

This "lets pay for the downtrodden", and HUGE government social spending (ie welfare, medicare medicaid) is why the US is dying (as if from cancer)

The best thing we could do for the US would be pull the plug on these social programs.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tizzo27
Slavery is the word you're looking for.. Any scheme that claims your work for someone else's benefit is slavery (call it what you want)
That's not slavery. Nearly every job involves someone else's benefit. Slavery is the act of owning someone else as property and having dominant control over them.

Originally Posted by Tizzo27
Welfare was the downfall of both personal responsibility and parenting in many minority communities.. literally paying the mother not to have the father around..



Yes we do have to pay for other peoples bull****, and we're all the worse for it.
But you are wrong the "Me first" attitude is exactly what made the US powerful in the first place.. Me First= The American Dream

This "lets pay for the downtrodden", and HUGE government social spending (ie welfare, medicare medicaid) is why the US is dying (as if from cancer)

The best thing we could do for the US would be pull the plug on these social programs.
"Me First" is not what made this country. In fact, the "me first" attitude is why people don't care how their actions affect others (ie people choosing to live on welfare). If all you care about is how you are doing, don't complain when others have the same attitude and chose to depend on tax money. Their just looking out for themselves just like you, why should they care what you think?

Welfare is not cancer either. Poor people don't become rich or just disapear just because you cut them off of government funding. They stay around and steal, beg, and borrow to stay alive. Cutting welfare doesn't do away with the problem, it just deflects it. Welfare isn't around because of empathy, it's around because it's an attempt to mitigate a complex problem of poor/homeless people living on the streets which nobody wants.

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Old 07-18-2009, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
If all you care about is how you are doing, don't complain when others have the same attitude and chose to depend on tax money. Their just looking out for themselves just like you, why should they care what you think?
All the more reason why there shouldn't be any tax money allocated to those people/programs. Get rid of welfare and any other social program that benefits indigents. If there is nothing to "take" from, they'll just have to look elsewhere. As long as these ridiculous programs exist, then yes, there will always be people with their grubby little hands out, thinking they are entitled to something they didn't earn. Again I say, you only deserve what you can earn. If you can't afford it, you'll have to do without it, whether it be health care, a home, food, or cable tv.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kyoung05
All the more reason why there shouldn't be any tax money allocated to those people/programs. Get rid of welfare and any other social program that benefits indigents. If there is nothing to "take" from, they'll just have to look elsewhere. As long as these ridiculous programs exist, then yes, there will always be people with their grubby little hands out, thinking they are entitled to something they didn't earn. Again I say, you only deserve what you can earn. If you can't afford it, you'll have to do without it, whether it be health care, a home, food, or cable tv.
Again, what do you care what other people do? I thought this was all about me first?

As I said before, cutting off funding doesn't make poor people disappear. If they can't afford to survive, they'll resort to actually stealing. The problem doesn't go away, it's just deferred. This isn't an issue about weak bleeding heart liberals wanting to give hand outs, this is about actual problems that don't go away.... unless we elect a fascist who just makes it illegal to be poor, which would give several people I know a warm and fuzzy feeling.
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Old 07-18-2009, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
That's not slavery. Nearly every job involves someone else's benefit. Slavery is the act of owning someone else as property and having dominant control over them.
You're right Every Job does involve someone else's benefit. You sell me a widget you made (a tangible unit of work).. I give you money (a tangible equivalent to X units of work) we trade work for work in a mutually beneficial and Voluntary exchange.
If however point a gun at you and say give Pedro eight units of widget for free; I have enslaved you for Pedro's benefit. (literally robbed you of work and gave it to Pedro.)
The same is true if I forceably take your work, sell it and use the money to put Pedro's kids through college..



"Me First" is not what made this country. In fact, the "me first" attitude is why people don't care how their actions affect others (ie people choosing to live on welfare). If all you care about is how you are doing, don't complain when others have the same attitude and chose to depend on tax money. Their just looking out for themselves just like you, why should they care what you think?
Me first.. (aka self interest) is why Capitalism succeeds..

Because some people have enough dignity to not live life as Parasites..

Being self interested is not a vice.. It's what drives a man to better himself (by going to school working hard etc), make more money, raise his kids right (as apposed to abandoning them) and participate in politics.

Nothing you have would be here but for Self interest.. You think you'd be driving that Subaru if someone in Japan didn't think he'd make money off of it..
Or was your Subaru hand crafted in a small Commune in Berkeley??

What the fuel to run it?

The hamburger you had for lunch?

Welfare is not cancer either. Poor people don't become rich or just disapear just because you cut them off of government funding. They stay around and steal, beg, and borrow to stay alive. Cutting welfare doesn't do away with the problem, it just deflects it. Welfare isn't around because of empathy, it's around because it's an attempt to mitigate a complex problem of poor/homeless people living on the streets which nobody wants.
Or maybe they get jobs? Maybe they steal and get shot? Maybe they realize that they either work or die?

Welfare is basically like growing a hedge.
The only way to guarantee equality is constant trimming, you can't make the short roses grow taller so instead you cut down the taller plants.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tizzo27
You're right Every Job does involve someone else's benefit. You sell me a widget you made (a tangible unit of work).. I give you money (a tangible equivalent to X units of work) we trade work for work in a mutually beneficial and Voluntary exchange.
If however point a gun at you and say give Pedro eight units of widget for free; I have enslaved you for Pedro's benefit. (literally robbed you of work and gave it to Pedro.)
The same is true if I forceably take your work, sell it and use the money to put Pedro's kids through college..
Wage slavery is still slavery.

Originally Posted by Tizzo27
Me first.. (aka self interest) is why Capitalism succeeds..
You have an unusual understanding of capitalism. First off, it is an economic system, not a social system; secondly, it's driven by competition, not profit; and lastly, self-interest (selfishness to a point of taking advantage of others) is a flaw of capitalism and any other economic/social/political philosophy and causes it to break down.

Originally Posted by Tizzo27
Being self interested is not a vice.. It's what drives a man to better himself (by going to school working hard etc), make more money, raise his kids right (as apposed to abandoning them) and participate in politics.

Nothing you have would be here but for Self interest.. You think you'd be driving that Subaru if someone in Japan didn't think he'd make money off of it..
Or was your Subaru hand crafted in a small Commune in Berkeley??

What the fuel to run it?

The hamburger you had for lunch?
Why would self-interest make someone participate in politics or raise their children "right"? I think you might misunderstand the meaning of the term.

"Self-interest" doesn't mean someone who is "interested" in themselves, ie., taking an active role in the betterment of their own life. It means someone who is an opportunist and disregards the needs of everyone around them to the point of a willingness to take advantage of others so long as they benefit. Someone who is self-interested is, in fact, a reprehensible, selfish, opportunistic person.

Or, look it up yourself:

opportunism: taking advantage of opportunities without regard for the consequences for others
egoism: concern for your own interests and welfare
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

One's personal interest or advantage, especially when pursued without regard for others
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-interest
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