kravdra

Ok, thisl prolly be long and I apologize in advance

I took my car to the HPDE thing the 22nd and had a ton of fun, but now am wondering if I'm crazy. I spun the car cuz I suck at driving, and got spooked by a couple BMWs that crashed(?) after turn 4. I saw them, one of which was still slightly on the track, without warning (had just happended and just passed flagger) and was a little through the turn. I took my foot off the gas in my panic and moved it to the brake, but before I got there I started loosing it and ended up spinning a bit beyond them. I'm nearly positive I'd have been fine had I stayed on the gas, but it was my first time, and it was so quick.

Anyways, in other corners, whenever I let off the gas while turning anywhere close to the limit, the car starts to slide/ get skittish (back starts racing front). The suspension is stock except I've installed a whiteline RSB and supporting stuff. Its only set to 18mm though, and I thought that was supposed to still have minor understeer?

So I was wondering if this is normal. Its the only car I've ever had, so I don't have any reference. Is it normal to have to be on the gas to be able to steer? Is this simply normal for suby's? or to 99 OBS's? or is it cuz of the RSB? or am I simply crazy and misunderstanding the whole thing?

And finally, is there any way to remedy this (allow me to glide(?) in corners)? Or is this a good thing and what I should be striving for?

Sorry for my noobness and I appreciate you taking the time to read this, much less answer it. Thanx in advance

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

I'm no expert driver, but I also have an OBS (98). I've spun mine once on a frosty morning on a long, sweeping 65-75mph turn- luckily no traffic and big gravel shoulder on outside of curve- still scared the sh*t outta me. I was stock then- since I've lowered it (struts/springs), and I got studless snow tires for the winter- I feel much safer.

The stock OBS suspension gives it an extra bit of ride height compared to other imprezas- and I'm guessing it's not as stiff either. Swapping this to coilovers (preferred if you got the $$) or just lowering springs and struts would help immensely (it did for me) for cornering traction and turn-in- and it would complemnt the rear sway that you've already done!

Anyway, did the back end slide out on you? That's what happened to me... I tried to correct, fishtailed, and around I went.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

I experience the same thing (not as much since susp. mods)- but I guess this is why you're supposed to let off gas/brake coming into corners, and accelerate through the turn (someone correct me if this is wrong) that is, if you don't want to slide

kravdra

yea, I let up on the gas, then the back went out a little, and I corrected it a little too much and didn't get back on the gas and went the other way. Couldn't really correct it and got sideways at which point I decided to do what the "how to crash" articles said and hit the brakes and finnished spinning off the track. It was kinda scary cuz it was my first time tracking and my 3rd run but I didn't have an instructor with me (he was eating lunch). I'm nearly positive had I stayed on the gas I'd have been fine since every other time I fishtailed at all was when I let of the gas, and every time I increased the throttle to just over neutral and it straightened right up.

I wish I had the money for coilovers maybe I'll look into springs, the thing is I don't really want to lower the car which is where coilovers would be nice, but we'll see.

Thanx

Kostamojen

iTrader: (2)

I think alot of your problem was weight shift combined with the stock suspension... With such a soft suspension, and the wagon body, you are bound to get alot of shifting weight dealing with high speed corners like that. Tires are also a big factor in how the car handles.

You definatly need new struts and springs... Just springs wont be the best thing to do, and perhaps some replacment bushings throughout the suspension as that really helps get rid of the slop and stabilizes the car.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

I've seen tons of different bushings you can replace (inner, outer, forward, lower, blah blah, etc.) Which ones would you suggest to replace first? I guess this would depend on how difficult each was to swap and what kind of difference they would make.

Do you know of any kits that fit the earlier (97-01) wagon models?
I've found various noltec and STi replacement bushings on a few sites- but only certain pairs, small kits (8-pc rear lateral link kit, etc.). Would any of these specific bushings be recommended?

What about an anti-lift kit (i.e. whiteline, perrin)? I'm still kind of confused about that thing. Would that be worth the money if other susp. mods have already been done?

Thanks for starting this thread, and also for the input

hoche

I have a '99 OBS. I've tracked it, and I've driven it in the dirt at rallycrosses. In fact, I won Street Stock 4WD last year in it, and I've clinched the title for Street Stock Modified 4WD in it for this year. In Modified, almost everything goes (except rally tires), so I'm usually racing against tuned WRX's, STi's, and Evos...and beating them. I've also used it for recce for performance rallies. It's a good little car. Not as fast as a WRX or even a 2.5RS, but still pretty good.

Mine is mostly stock, although I have STi engine and transmission mounts, Cusco strut tower bars, and a 20-24mm Cusco rear swaybar. I've also got an ACT clutch, but that's mostly because I use it to pull a motorcycle trailer and didn't like the smell the OEM clutch was generating. If you like, I can give you a breakdown of my opinions of each part. The strut tower bars, for instance, are mostly worthless.

Anyway, I've driven it Sears, Thunderhill, and Buttonwillow, on both street tires and R-compounds. The main thing you have to realize is that you've got a really soft suspension with TONS of body roll. The OBS in particular has a soft spring/stiff strut combination. The stiff struts control the rebound of the springs really well, but if you hammer it into a turn, those springs will compress a lot, and the car will sway. This means that you have to be REALLY careful about managing your weight transfer. If you're jerky at all, the car will unload and bounce all over the place. This is especially critical in places like turns 1a-2-3 or the esses (8-8a-9) at Sears, and turns 4-5-6 at Thunderhill where you're moving from one direction to the other. You really have to get into rhythm with the car.

With your 18mm rear swaybar, the handling should be pretty much neutral. I don't know exactly. As I mentioned above, I have a Cusco rear swaybar. I set it to the minimum (20mm), and the car oversteered. I compensated by getting some MRT front links to replace the stock rubber ones, and the car still oversteers a little, but it's close to neutral. I CAN get the back end to break loose, but I have to intentionally be abrupt with the car around to do it. (In the dirt, I do what's called a Scandinavian Flick to intentionally get the back end sliding.)

As I implied above, you have to be smooth with it because it rolls all over the place. However, if you get into trouble, the general thing to do in it is MASH THE THROTTLE. It's an all-wheel-drive car, with only a puny 142Hp, so getting on the throttle will settle it and let the front wheels pull you out. If you don't have enough grip, the AWD will make sure that your skid turns into a nice controllable drift. You don't have to worry about overpowering and having the rear break loose like you would in a RWD car.

Unless you're really interested in turning it into a track car, I wouldn't worry about changing your struts and springs. The OEM ones are pretty frickin' bulletproof and last forever. I'm still running on my original ones...and they have 105K on them. I've looked into replacing them, but they're still fine. Of course, if you want to sacrifice your offroadability or your street ride comfort, go ahead. It's your car.

kravdra

Wow thanx for the great reply, very educational!

That'd be awesome if its not too much trouble!

Yea, I think working on my driving skills will help the most, since I'm kinda jerky, I don't feel like I am, but everyone says I am

Thats pretty amazing that you had so much success on stock springs/struts, maybe I wont change them I like the offroadability, clearance, snowability and stuff, but I would like beter handling. Do you have any advice?

Thanks again for the reply, much appreciated x100

kravdra

O yea, and what is your opinion on changing out some/all of the bushings?

Thanx again (and thank you kastmojen also)

hoche

Ok, as for misc parts:

Wheels/tires: I forgot to mention earlier that the number one thing you can do to improve your street handling is to change your tires. The stock ones are designed for quietness and longevity, and have fairly soft sidewalls. They're pretty good for grip in soft conditions too, but on the street they're not so hot. The soft sidewalls flex when you hammer the car into turns, and suddenly the car dives in a different direction. I really really like BF Goodrich KDWS's. They're an M+S rated tire with decent street grip, good dirt grip, and nice stiff sidewalls. The only problem is that the smallest size they make them in is a 16, so they won't fit on the OEM rims. So...look around on the boards here, and find someone who's getting rid of WRX rims. They're relatively strong, relatively lightweight, cheap to get used, and are 16"s. KDWS's snow grip is moderate at best, but when I go up to Tahoe in blizzard conditions, I just throw on two sets of Z-cables, one front and one rear.On the track, I run with shaved BFG KD R1's (which aren't made any more) on 17" ASA JS1's.


Front strut tower bar: completely, totally, utterly useless. Unless you go to a really really stiff suspension and R-compounds, the front just doesn't flex enough to need it. I have one, and I leave it there because it doesn't do any harm, but it's a waste of time and money to go out of your way to get one.

Rear strut tower bar: mostly useless. I say mostly because I can actually feel it, but only under really hard cornering with R-compounds on the track. It's not a bad purchase, but hardly something to go out of your way for, unless you're planning on putting on a stiffer suspension.

STi engine and transmission mounts: plusses and minuses. Pluses: noticeable increase in getting power down, especially off launches. Note that these don't actually increase the power, they just let you get it down quicker. Minuses: the car vibrates more, with a pleasant throb at idle and an annoying whine above 4k RPM. It also means that you have to be smoother during shifts or the car jerks, which is kind of annoying when you're just running down to Safeway to get groceries.

Lightened pulleys, in the same diameters (not underdrive): I don't like underdrive pulleys because they affect the efficiency of your water pump, alternator, and A/C. The lightened ones add a little bit of quickness to the car, but again, they don't affect the total horsepower output. They also contribute to the throb at idle, much in the same way a lightened flywheel would. The ones I have require slightly tighter fan belts because the belts don't grip them as well as the OEM ones, but this hasn't really been an issue. Right now my A/C belt slips a little whenever the A/C comes on, and sounds like the car's sneezing.

ACT clutch: As mentioned previously, I put this in because I tow with the car, and the OEM one was making funny smells. It also had 80K miles on it when I did it, so maybe it was just needing a replacement. I really like the clutch, but it's REALLY heavy. It makes the car sort of unpleasant to drive around town. I'm used to it now and apparently have built up a pretty strong left leg because I barely notice it, but it's generally the first thing people borrowing my car complain about.

Swaybars: I mentioned this above. I think many people over-sway their car. Most people don't like body roll and don't deal with it well. A flatter ride is less disconcerting. There're two common ways to deal with the roll. One is to go with stiffer springs, which sacrifices ride comfort. The other is to put on heavy sway bars, which sacrifices wheel compliance over bumps. I think Subaru did a pretty good job selecting the front sway bar, but intentionally underswayed the rear to make it understeer for safety. I like my current set up (the Cusco set at minimum with Kartboy endlinks, and the stock bar up front with MRT endlinks). As I said, it oversteers a teeny bit, and if I were to sell the car, I'd probably put back on the stock swaybar, but leave the Kartboy endlinks. I just don't trust anyone else to drive it hard on tarmac as it is.

I'm building a VW GTI to be a rallycar right now, but I'm planning on retiring this car from the street, throwing in a 2.5 engine, and converting it to a rallycar in about three years. When I do, I will probably run with no swaybar up front, and the OEM one in the rear.

Brake pads/fluid: For fluid, I run ATE SuperBlue, although whatever Subaru of Santa Cruz puts in is fine for most street use. The ATE is good when you take it to the track because the boiling point is a lot higher. For pads, well, the OEM ones are decent, but not really up to any performance stuff. I'm running them now, but find them kind of annoyingly soft. They last a really long time though. I ran Porterfield R4S's for a year and liked them, but after six months and six track days, they pretty much disintegrated in the drums. Drums suck for shedding heat, and that probably contributed to their demise. I went back to the OEM's because don't track the car much anymore (I have a Miata I use for that), and they've been fine but I kinda miss the grip of the Porterfields. I'm considering throwing in some Axxis Ultimates, which I really liked for the Miata before I went to a full track pad in that.

Brake lines: I have stainless steel fronts from Cobb. Well built, and covered with some rubber/epoxy compound. Very nice. I have matching rears, but they're not on the car because they're for a 2.5RS and don't work with the drums and I've been too lazy to get an adaptor. If you go to performance pads, these are a must because performance pads require more hydraulic brake pressure. OEM rubber lines bulge with higher brake pressures, and the result is a mushy pedal. Just putting the lines on the front corrects that, at the expense of changing the bias a little bit, but since it's to the front it's not a big deal. You DON'T, repeat DON'T want your rears locking up before your fronts. (Err...unless you're trying to break the back end loose intentionally to help you around a turn in the dirt. See sections on "Scandinavian Flick" and "E-Brake Turns" for more information. )

Air filter: Get a K&N, or better yet, an Amsoil 2-stage. Definitely helps the car breathe better at higher RPM's. They both flow about the same, but the Amsoil filters a LOT better.

Hm. Lessee, what else?

I run either Redline 10-30 or Royal Purple 10-30, depending on what I can get my hands on. If you want to try Royal Purple and you're near San Jose, I recommend United Auto Supply, on Almaden (I think) just south of downtown. Ask for John and tell him I sent you.

I'm currently running Royal Purple MaxGear on both my transmission and rear diff. I'm probably going to change to Redline ShockProof Blue, based on some conversations with someone who's rallied an Impreza.

My car is serviced either by me or by Subaru of Santa Cruz. I don't let anyone else touch it.

As for bushings...I wouldn't bother unless you're planning on changing out your whole suspension for a stiffer one. I haven't changed mine. For the GTI, I'm going to change them...and replace them with exactly the same OEM rubber ones, only new. For the Miata, which runs a suspension which is currently about 5x stock, I'm going to change them with polyurethane ones. Eurethane traps dirt, gets squeaky, and can tear. Rubber is generally softer, but lasts longer. (To be fair, I should like to note that we tore a rubber front strut mount at Gorman Ridge Rally last weekend, but I suspect that was due to repeatedly crashing into waterbars at speed on 25 year-old mounts rather than a specific issue with the mount itself.)

Anyway, the car's what it is: a cheap, moderately powered, semi-offroadable, dead reliable utility wagon, designed to get decent gas mileage, be comfortable, and still handle ok. My general opinion is that it's not worth trying to make it a supercar. There are some minor things you can do to it to make it handle better, but it's a pretty middle-of-the-road car. It doesn't have lot of horsepower - just enough. It doesn't have incredible handling - just enough. If you can drive it quick as it is, though, you can drive just about anything else fast.

kravdra

wow. very nice. Thanks.

Unfortunately lacking the driving skills you do, I think I might need to upgrade more stuff ;-) Er I mean take more classes :banana:

I kept forgetting to say this, and now I think everyone's commented on it. I've upgraded my wheels. I'm currently running 17" OZ Superleggeras with ContiSportContacts. I know its not the best tires out there, and when they run out I'll get better ones, but I got them used.

So I guess I probably won't upgrade bushings or put in a strut tower bar, have already upgraded the swaybar and wheels, so...

I guess I should put in stainless brakelines, and maybe new pads, but, at the track I never had braking problems, probably since I wasn't braking aggressively, so maybe later...

I already have a K&N to bad I didn't know the Amsoil was better :-(

I also have a Ganzflow CAI don't know how much it really helps, but it was cheap :-)

Lightened pulleys don't really seem to make sense though, wouldn't an lightened flywheel offer a lot more? And I definitely wouldn't get an underdrive pulley, just the idea, I want my car to be happy.

For the transmission fluid I'm assuming those sync the gears well? (as apposed to prolonging bearing life) I might try them when I next change transmission fluid, I just put some in a few hundred miles ago though

Oh yea, scoobsport: As far as the ALK goes, I think it depends on what you do. It would put me out of STS class for autoX so for me, it wouldn't make any sense. However if your not worried about classes The thread up top makes it sound pretty good.

I really want to get some kind of coilover so I can adjust the height and stiffness. I think it'l be a while though since I'll need lots of money, also, its hard to find the perfect one since I want one that'l work offroad and onroad. Have at least as comfortable ride as stock, but be able to be lowerd and stiffened for track. Probably impossible, but I'll keep looking at maybe find one.

Sorry for the longness and rambling, half thinking out loud, half asking for opinions

Thanx a ton for taking the time to reply, and for the great replys.

PS. I hate how few smileys it lets you have :-(

kravdra

Oh yea, since your here hoche, I've been wanting to rallycross for a while (rallying is awesome) and was just wondering how different rally and road stuff are? Are they real similar skills or is everything real different? I've heard that in rally you apex early, kick out the back, and just have a very different style for the two. Is this true? Do you think it would be ok, or counterproductive for me to learn both/on both?

Thanx again!

hoche

Sorry to be so late getting back to you; I had a hockey game tonight. I'll answer this in two parts.

OZ Superleggeras are nice. As for the tires, I have a friend who's running some Conti M+S tire on his STi. I'm not sure what it is. He's found it wears quickly in the dirt and the outer blocks have split and chunked off, and I think he's planning on swapping to something else. Since he's the one who turned me on to the KDWS's, I have a feeling he might go back to those. Dunno.

My Subaru's track tires are 17"s. I haven't run them on the street, except for brief intervals. I don't like running with a low profile tire if I don't have to. Uncomfortable. I also don't think I'd want to run in the dirt with a low profile tire either. Too much wheel hop.

K&N's are OK. I run 'em on my motorcycles, and a lot of people run them in the dirt. As with any air filter, just check it regularly and clean it when needed.
They're a pretty proven product.

As for SS brakelines: if you have the stock pads, you're probably OK with what you've got. If you upgrade them, you'll probably notice that the pedal feels kinda mushy compared to before. The thing about SS lines is that unless they're protected by a rubber or epoxy coating, they're more susceptible to abrasion. If that outer jacket tears, they're toast and you've got no brakes. Bad, m'kay? With the bigger rims, you'll have to make sure that there's no possibility of rubbing. I like the Cobb ones I got (except for the minor detail of the rears not being compatible) because of the clearcoat on the outside. I have Goodridges on the Miata, and they're fine for what I use that for, but they have no outer coating, so I'm pretty careful to check them before I go anywhere in the car, or take it out on the track. At any rate, if you do put them on, make sure you get some from a reputable place. I've heard horror stories of the ends not being installed correctly, and the lines blowing off under hard braking.

Hm. CAI. I dunno. I don't run one on the OBS. I had one on the Miata, but I took it off because it tanked my low end torque (that, and the scoop fractured). Those are probably pretty good on high-revving engines, but if you depend on your torque (as I do in rallycrosses), they're not so hot. Oh, and if you have a Ganz, you're probably stuck with the K&N because I don't think Amsoil makes cone filters like that.

Speaking of torque, I have a used Stromung exhaust sitting in my garage. I haven't put it on because of the same thing...I'm afraid it will tank my low-end torque. I don't know. One of these days I will take the car to a 4WD dyno and try it before and after.

Yeah, a lightened flywheel would offer more than just lightened pulleys, but I didn't feel like changing that. The lightened pulleys do help...I don't remember the numbers, but they were something like 3.5lbs vs 8lbs.

Yeah, the front transmission fluid is for the front gears and diff. The rear is a separate unit, as I'm sure you know.

As for coilovers, well, you have a couple of options. If you have the bucks, nearly everyone says that DMS are the best. The problem is they're spendy and DMS's customer service has been poor in the past. I hear they're fixing that though. TEIN has a wide selection of struts. I someone who runs Flex's and they're pretty good, although they seemed too stiff to me. I think Kostamojen runs TEIN's on his L, but I'm not sure. TEIN also makes a gravel strut...the um...HG? You have to be careful if you want to keep your ride height though; nearly every non-rally coilover I've looked at lowers the car. If you want to go on the cheap, you can get Koni inserts (which involve cutting apart stock struts and replacing the shock mechanism with the insert) and something like a Ground Control perch with Eibach springs. I think you can also use KYB AGX's, but they don't have the throw of the Konis (and are slightly less beefily built), so you won't get the ride height. I like Ground Control; I run them on the Miata and they have tons of springs, and will happily chat with you about them. I think they're also now officially a Koni revalving/rebuilding shop, but I haven't talked to them in awhile.

I have yet to be able to find information on what the rates of the OEM strut/springs are. It's very annoying. Subaru doesn't release them , and no one seems to know. I pestered the parts guys at Subaru of Santa Cruz one day, and from part numbers and the general conversation, I *think* the struts are the same ones as on the 2.5RS, and the springs are the same rates as on the base Imprezas but taller, but I don't know for sure.

If you get something where you can adjust your ride height and damping, be careful of how you set it. When it comes to damping, the most important is rebound control. When it comes to ride height, well, adjusting that affects your camber, and can decrease wheel patch contact if you go overboard. Unless you do it perfectly evenly, it also affects your corner-weighting, but unless you're planning on turning pro I wouldn't worry about that so much .

By the way, be gentle with your transmission, especially in the low gears. Subaru transmissions are notoriously...well, I wouldn't call them weak, but let's just say they're fussy. My second gear synchro has been shot for three years. It still works well enough that it's fine on the street as long as I baby it, but it gets cranky if I try to shift too fast...which I'm prone to doing while rallycrossing. There's some footage around of me running with some, er, well, let's just call them disturbing noises coming from my gearbox during a shift.

*vroom* *pause* *grind* *chunk* *vrooooooooooom*

Once I get the GTI out of the garage, in comes the Miata to change its suspension again (I keep fiddling with it), and then I gotta overhaul one of my bikes' engines, and then...new gearbox for the OBS.

hoche

OK, now for the part on rally vs track driving.

Simple question, LOOOONG response.

First of all, if you were to look at aerial footage of an F1 car going from a straight into a moderate turn into another straight, and then compare it to a WRC car doing the same thing in an area with moderate grip, you would find that their lines are identical. The slow-in-fast-out, late apex line is king. The problem is that there're a *zillion* reasons to modify that line.

On the track, you know what's coming up, and you (hopefully) know your car, so you can figure out how to modify the line ahead of time. Is it a turn you need to sacrifice to get a better set up for the next turn? (The last turn before a straight is the most important.) What's the camber of the turn? Are there any dips in it? What's my car's handling like? If you've got a car with poor turning, but lots of horsepower, you might want to go in a bit slower and do an even later apex turn, basically drag racing from turn to turn. If you've got a car without much power, you might need to conserve as much momentum as possible through the turn, and perhaps go in a little bit earlier, with an earlier apex, but a rounder line through the turn. Note that on tarmac, these sorts of adjustments are *really* minor. The difference in the lines of a Porsche vs a Miata at Thunderhill are a matter of inches. In general, whenever you go to a track, get someone to show you the school line, and learn it, and then start tweaking it, preferably with a timer so you can see what tweaks worked and what didn't.

On a track, especially in competition, there're also modifications for running a blocking line. For example, at Thunderhill, there's a big sweeper (turn 2). In lower horsepower cars, there's a very slightly slower line you can take where you run waaay inside and basically hang your left front wheel off the tarmac. I haven't run in competition, but I understand that if you have someone on your tail and you *don't* take that line, they can get just enough inside you to take command and force you to let them by in the small straight leading into turn 3.

Another example of this is at Speedring. One of my favorite things to do is pass people in turn 4a. The fast way through there is to go in slightly deep and really late apex it, and then just be on the gas all the way though 4b and 5. However, if someone does that, you can late-brake 'em, tuck in inside, and force 'em off their line. It's not nice, and it's a slower line, but it takes command of the turn. If I have someone on my tail who I know is quick, I'll generally not go in so deep and sacrifice my lap time for the sake of keeping my position.

On tarmac, for moderately powered cars with equal weights and smooth drivers I'm pretty firmly convinced that there is no advantage to RWD vs FWD vs AWD. If the lines are clean, there should be no wheelspin whatsover. In turns, there is a slight amount of wheelslip, and it can be argued that RWD gives you the ability to have your rear wheels fully powering forward while your fronts are still turning slightly. However, I would argue that if your rears are going straight while your fronts are still turned, you're probably plowing and not going as fast as you could. It's probably subject to debate, and this is a situation where someone who does a lot of autocrossing can probably help. At any rate, when you start getting into bigger horsepower, RWD (and AWD) has an advantage because under acceleration the weight moves back under the driving wheels. For jerky drivers, FWD (and AWD) has an advantage because they're a lot easier to keep under control. I keep putting AWD in parentheses because generally AWD has a weight penalty.

On dirt, there're a whole different set of issues to consider. One of the primary reasons that rally drivers slide the back end around so much is because they often don't know where the road is going. If the back end is sliding, it's really easy to change the attitude of the car by a slight throttle/steering application. This helps if you're going around, say, a left hander and you don't know whether it's going to go into another left hander, a straight, or an immediate right hander. With tires, there's a hysteris effect. It takes a lot of energy to break 'em loose, but once they're loose, it takes hardly any to sustain that. And it doesn't matter whether they've broken loose because of a lack of lateral grip or because of a lack of forward grip. Once they're loose, they're loose, and the only way to get them to hook up again is to get them to match the forward road speed. So, if the back end's sliding one way, it's easy to get it to change directions and slide the other way. The end object is to get the car pointed in the "blast off" direction, and hold the tires there long so that the wheelspin matches the car's forward speed enough so that they hook up again. In a FWD car, the driving wheels don't need to be slid (in fact, you better not do it if you want to have any steering), so when you apply the throttle, they hopefully will hook up right away. In a RWD car, you have to be a lot more careful. For one thing, in this situation the rear wheels are already broken loose, so you can't get power down right away, and in fact may need to back off the throttle a little to get them to hook up. For another, the cars in front of you will have thrown loose dirt and rocks and other cruft towards the outer edge of the turn, and guess where your driving wheels are likely to be? The final thing is that if the back end's hung out at an extreme angle and you hit the gas hard, it will try to overtake the front. Power-on oversteer, it's called. This can be great fun. I think I hold the record for the most loops in a single rallycross run in the SF Region. I was driving a borrowed RX7 in some fun runs, and looped it twice. I admit that getting into the situation was a result of poor throttle-control on my part. However, once I was in it, there was a split second of "hm...should I try to save it or just keep going around?", followed by "naaaah". Ok, so I recorded one of the slowest times of the day, but I also got "BAD ***!" written on my timing slip. I have it taped to my monitor here.

In really tight turns, you're faced with a couple of extra issues. One is a variant of the high-horsepower-car-with-poor-handing. If you can get the car rotated and pointing in the direction you want to exit, your tires won't be wasting time trying to turn, and you can get them to match the car's forward direction sooner and therefore hook up a bit quicker. The second thing is that a sliding tire in a soft surface "bulldozes" the dirt in front of it. This helps it and the car slow down somewhat. You can use this to help with braking, getting you better set up for the slow-in-fast-out line.

All this is of course mitigated by what surface you're running on, whether it be hardpacked dirt, sand, snow, or gravel.

In general, in the dirt a RWD car is at a serious disadvantage. Besides the issues mentioned above, there's no weight over the driving wheels. The only way to get weight there is to accelerate, but if you can't accelerate, you can't get weight there. Catch-22. This is particularly noticible over stutterbumps, where the back end is just skipping and hopping. At Gorman last weekend, I was co-driving in a RWD Celica, and there was a section where we came around a turn, and then had to head up a hill over some stutters. The turn was marked as a Left 2, so we slowed before we hit it, and then coudn't get any speed up. I noticed that the exit to the turn was wide, so I made a note saying "fast, save momentum" for the next time we ran the stage. Unfortunately, the next time we went through the stage, another car had an off right in that turn, so we had to slow down even more. There was nothing we could but bounce up that hill at 20mph, but I started laughing when I called the next turn - "Caution, right 3, off camber" - because we were barely moving.

In a rallycross, things are somewhat different. You get to walk the course ahead of time, so you should know the road, and know what the conditions are. Except for the really tight turns, there is no reason for sliding the car at all during a rallycross.

As for my winning my class in rallycrosses, it's NOT because I have any l33t s|<i11Z or anything. It's mostly because I have a fair amount of seat time, and I've experimented with the car. There're a lot of great drivers with excellent car control that I compete against. However, about two years ago, I discovered that the N/A 2.2 engine has a lot more torque at low RPMs (below 3000) than either a WRX or an Evo. This lets me run the whole thing in second gear. I try not to get too slow so I bog it, but if I'm careful I have an advantage because I have power coming out of turns, and I don't have to shift in straights. WRX's and Evo's running in first have too much power and generally waste time spinning their wheels in turns, and then either bang off the rev limiter in straights or waste more time shifting. If they run the whole thing in second, they fall off their turbo in tight turns and there's a loooooooong laaaaaaag until they get power again. 2.5RS's, STi's, and modified Evo's make me nervous, though.

Anyway, there's a rallyschool coming up at Thunderhill on October 17. See
http://www.sfrscca.org/RallyX/ The morning is a classroom session, and the afternoon is spent in driving sessions on skidpads, figure-8's, and slaloms for drivers, and sample route-following for co-drivers. I'll be there, but I'm not sure in what capacity yet. Last year I was a driving instructor; this year I may do that or be a co-driving instructor, or just be running around flagging and running the water truck. Dunno. There's also a rallycross the next day.



Oh shoot. I didn't even mention left-foot-braking vs braking-with-the-left-foot.

kravdra

Whaaaaaaa?

Anyways, thanks for the great responses. Even w/ ur staying in second, u've still gotta be a pretty insanely great driver to beat those other cars, and 2.5RS's (I guess as well as those other two) have greater torque than you

I signed up for the Oct 16th and 17th thing. Can't wait :banana:

Oops I meant apex late, o well.

Thanks SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much for the responses, very educational informative and entertaining, as well as really easy to understand, and I really apreciate you taking the time to help me!!!!!!!!!!!