DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

IT'S NOT THE ENDLINKS... (4/19/06)

I posted this prob recently and did not get an answer and still do not have a sol'n.
I talked to engineers at Tein and they felt that the noise was not related to the coilovers.

After further inspection w/ a friend, it appears that the sound is coming from the subframe area- possibly SB endlinks. Front sways and end links are stock.

I have already ordered new Helix endlinks based on that assumption (stiffer endlinks couldn't hurt?). In the meantime, next logical test would be to disconnect endlink attachment to front suspension and see if noise disappears.

Can anybody tell me, would short test of easy driving with front endlinks/sway bar disconnected potentially harm suspension? I would think not.

This is the sound I am trying to diagnose. http://www.threeringranch.org/norm/suby.htm
There is also a significant "clunk" when the brakes are applied.
ALL suspension bolts have been checked and tightened.

My friends thinking is that lowering the car w/ the coilovers may have put excessive stress on the stock endlink bushings and is causing the problem. Because I also installed the Perrin PSRS, it is possible that some component of the subframe is causing this, but Perrin "assures me" that this is not a problem they have seen.

thanks for any help.
norm

SnoWhyte

I got the same noise coming from the passenger front when the brakes are applied. It's the Perrin PSRS. The noise started when i installed it.

I think your friend is correct about the lowering of the car and the stress because I went through 2 endlinks. The only one that works for me is the Perrin endlink.

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

My problems may have also begun after the PSRS install. They were quite mild for a long time. Then got worse/changed after the Tein install which is why I'm not sure if the problem is new or not.

Have you found any sol'n for the PSRS noise? I'm half-tempted to toss 'em and replace w/ Whiteline anti-lift. (I do love the performance increase of the increased castor- w/ the added neg. camber the car has great turn-in)

What endlinks failed on you? I'll post results of test w/ endlinks disconnected.

norm

SnoWhyte

The endlinks that failed was Hotchkis and Poltec. I think the combo of the Tein and the PSRS put a lot of stress on the front end. I say this because both of the endlinks that failed had the spherical bushing loosened from it's housing.

I was also thinking about trying the Whiteline anti-lift race specs.

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

After reading other's posts, I was somewhat confident that the endlinks were causing this problem. So, I removed the stock endlinks and went for a drive. (I will be replacing w/ Perrin endlinks when they arrive from Oakos)

Not only was there no change, the "clunking" was much worse! There is a very dramatic shift/slide/clunk with brake application and a lot of "popping" while steering wheel is turned at slow speed in fwd and reverse (like parking). It sounds like the automotive equivalent of cracking your knuckles. The creaking while driving is still terrible, too.

Next thought is to entirely remove and reinstall the PSRS, in case there is something loose in the subframe or some other area. (I've removed it once and regreased w/ no change, though). I've already gone through and tightened/checked all suspension bolts, though. Now that sway bar is totally decoupled from the suspension (endlinks removed) you can't blame a sliding/shifting sway bar as the cause of the clunk, either.

Obviously, this is incredibly frustrating...

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

the creaking DEFINATELY started after the PSRS were installed. The (shift/slide) "clunk" is a fairly new symptom and I really don't know if it is related.

I don't have the stock trailing arm bushing to reinstall, but if I can't find any other sol'n, I may just have to try replacing the Perrin PSRS with the Whiteline anti-lift.

In retrospect, I'm not sure either the Perrin or the Whiteline are a good idea. While they do indeed provide much quicker turn-in and earlier/better acceleration out of turns by "anti-lift" property, they also drop the subframe ~ 1". After the Tein flex insall, which dropped car ~ 2" (I have them set a little higher), that leaves only ~ 3 1/2 " of ground clearence. Going over even minor speed bumps is a major problem. Although clearence for the rest of the car (esp. differentials, oil pan, exhaust) is OK (even after suspension lowering), the 3 1/2" (max!) clearence below the subframe has been a problem at times. It is something that you really should consider before installing them.

Arnie

Which PSRS do you have? The bearing version or the delrin version? I'm not sure about the delrin version but the bearing version is VERY critical about installation. Most noise problems that people incurred was do to improper installation. Make sure you do the final tightening with the car fully loaded. The two 19mm bolts per side are a usual culprit.

One thing to keep in mind is that the combo of the TEIN tophats and the absolutely unforgiving bushing material of the Perrin kit leads to a dramatic increase in NVH. So any small noises you may have will be significantly amplified.

lastly, the TEIN ride height instructions are for glass smooth tracks. even for those they are, IMO, too low. They are a very short stroke damper and those settings have you sitting on the bumpstops. Even a front ride height of 13.5" from center of hub to fender well has you immediately on the bumpstops with the first mid corner bump leading to lots of understeer. Most Flex guys have settled on about 14"F/13.5"R for ride heights. But even those guys have shortened their bumpstops. You have more pressing performance matters to worry about than scraping your u-brace on speed bumps.

I have never had a noise issues with my Whiteline ALk and would recommend them hands down over any other of the pretenders.

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

thanks Arnie- I've seen your posts before and they usually have good info. I believe I have the bearing version- I'll have to re-check the color in the morning. I did tighten those 19mm bolts under load, but will do so again, as I intend to remove/reinstall. (and yes, I've considered removal and reinstall of Whiteline ALK but don't want to spend another $150 just yet- though god knows I've spent enough time dealing w/ this. The car has been essentially non-functional for almost 2 months.)

I agree and understand the increased NVH, but if you watch my video, we're talking SERIOUS noises. The "slip-clunk" on braking and the popping w/ steering while slow speed backing is also quite disconcerting. Also, the car ran perfectly for a number of months with this setup, including multiple ski trips and a track day, all w/o problem or undue NVH. In fact, it handled GREAT on the track (-2 camber up front, great turn-in, very neutral and predictable) and was quite reasonable on the street, too. (concrete expansion joints on the highway would loosen fillings, though, and forget trying to listen to a CD!!)

I agree about ride height recs from Tein- too low. When Joe's Alfa/Subaru initially installed them, they set them so low the rear tires were rubbing on turns/driveways. I raised them some before 1st track day and then again during lunch break, as they were still rubbing w/ hard driving. (215/45/17s on wagon). When I brought it back to Joe's before shipping the car, I asked them to raise car further (needed 6" to clear ship loading ramp) and they set them 1" OVER max height. Lucky I didn't have a failure on the highway.

I'll measure my ride height and let you know b/c I'v not checked and it would be interesting to see.

As far as noise source, Perrin tech swore up and down that it wasn't being caused by his product. "I've never heard of anything like that," he said. We'll see...

What worries me is that there appears to be 2 distinct problems w/o a common cause I can come up with: the creaking (which I still think is bearing noise though my friend thinks it sounds more "metal on metal" and the very dramatic "clunk" from the left floorboard/steering box area, shortly after applying the brakes. If I had confidence in the mechanic that initially installed it (which I don't) I would be looking for a hardware problem. If I had confidence in the hardware (which I don't after reading many posts) I would be looking for an installation/bolt torque problem. There is just no obvious answer and each time I think I've found it (e.g., the endlinks) it proves to be wrong.

If nothing else, by the time this gets solved, I'll have a VERY good understanding of the Suby front suspension and the relative pluses/minuses/problems of the many mod options. Not the way I wanted to become an "expert" though!

Northwest Tan

iTrader: (3)

norm,
driving around with the front bar disconnected won't hurt anything. just make sure it stays clear of other moving suspension pieces.

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

...but it handles like my dad's old Lincoln Town Car!
norm

DrNorm

iTrader: (1)

I thought of a better way to describe the additional clunking noise I am talking about.

It has the same sound/feel as sliding the bolt forward on a rifle or closing the slide on a pump shotgun...sort of a "slip...kerchunk" feeling/sound. Forward momentum, a "give" and a stop.

This morning I pulled up to a stop sign on a hill. As the car came to a stop, there was the familiar "slip...clunk" forward motion. BUT, as I pulled away slowly from the stop sign, there was also the SAME "slide...clunk" but this time, BACKWARDS. Whatever it was that had shifted forward, had now shifted back. I DID NOT ROLL BACK BEFORE MOVING FORWARD.

Up until now, I had thought that this may have been coming from the brake pads shifting, but since there was no backwards movement to "reset" the pads, I can now say that that is definately not the cause. Since the sway bar/end links are removed, it is also NOT the sway bar shifting in its mount or bad endlinks.

SO, whatever is causing this sound must be a another suspension component and perhaps it is also the source of the creaking/squeaking, since "something" has got to be loose for this movement to be taking place.

Back to my plan of complete PSRS disassembly and careful reassembly. I will also check other suspension components while I'm down there, but want to be careful not to screw up the alignment.

Arnie

wait, wait, wait!!!!! That is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard. Yet another reason I truly have no respect from that company. Hmm, did I say that in public? anyway, there is a huge thread on nasioc about the clunking of the bearing version. Which was frequented by various folks from Perrrin. Two causes were given. One being defective bearings from the factory with some loose tolerances and the other being improper installation.

Here is the mega thread. Have fun:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=PSRS