chassis x-brace
07-16-2005, 04:33 PM
#1
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Car Info: 02WRXpseudoSTiWannabeWagon
Yes, but...
The first thought that always comes to mind with regards to chassis bracing or stiffening is the generic physics of what the apparatus is doing. What I mean is that when you brace one thing, you transfer the 'load' somewhere else.
Being that that brace looks like it would only accomplish a percentage of what an entire cage would; especially on an otherwise non-braced car, I imagine that either the front or the back (or both) of the car would be experiencing more of a load.
The first thought that always comes to mind with regards to chassis bracing or stiffening is the generic physics of what the apparatus is doing. What I mean is that when you brace one thing, you transfer the 'load' somewhere else.
Being that that brace looks like it would only accomplish a percentage of what an entire cage would; especially on an otherwise non-braced car, I imagine that either the front or the back (or both) of the car would be experiencing more of a load.
07-16-2005, 06:54 PM
#2
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I guess I beat around the bush too much.
I think that the benefits you may gain in bracing the particular points on your car that that would bolt up to would be negated by the lack of bracing and increased stress on other points on your car.
I think that at least the part deserves some more examination. Maybe it would help if you were to ask some more questions of the seller.
What were all of the parameters of the test? What, if any, bracing did the car already have on it? What were the full parameters of the race course? What were the weather conditions? What tires did they have on the car?
I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud. If you want it you'll buy it. I'm just hoping to give you some food for thought.
Are you aware of the issue with the Impreza front strut brace? They are so prevalent because they are inexpensive to make and they are an easy modification for someone to put on their car. However, if you were to ask someone on an Impreza racing team or someone who seriously autox's their Impreza what benefit you will get from a strut tower brace, they'd tell you zero.
I think that the benefits you may gain in bracing the particular points on your car that that would bolt up to would be negated by the lack of bracing and increased stress on other points on your car.
I think that at least the part deserves some more examination. Maybe it would help if you were to ask some more questions of the seller.
What were all of the parameters of the test? What, if any, bracing did the car already have on it? What were the full parameters of the race course? What were the weather conditions? What tires did they have on the car?
I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud. If you want it you'll buy it. I'm just hoping to give you some food for thought.
Are you aware of the issue with the Impreza front strut brace? They are so prevalent because they are inexpensive to make and they are an easy modification for someone to put on their car. However, if you were to ask someone on an Impreza racing team or someone who seriously autox's their Impreza what benefit you will get from a strut tower brace, they'd tell you zero.
07-28-2005, 10:29 AM
#5
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 418
Car Info: 05 WRB STi
I have been to the carlab and discussed the xbrace with them. I was told similar about the Xbrace patching up the weakest point of the chassis. They said they had a subaru chassis and had some sort of machine that could test this if I remember correctly.
I am a little skeptical as well, somethings seem to good to be true but they are saying tested results gave them an increased .2-.3 lateral g's on the skidpad. I thought that was unreal and asked if they meant .02-.03 but they said it was to help up to .2 or .3. If I could see an increase of .1 and not ruin the way the balance of the car (as gpatmac mentioned) that would be great for a cost that is less than $500.
If I get one I would be more than happy to give my share of results. I guess they are already have some Auto-x guys using it (Team Blew if I remember correctly) and they had great things to say. I don't know if carlab sponsors them or not... thats another story.
I am a little skeptical as well, somethings seem to good to be true but they are saying tested results gave them an increased .2-.3 lateral g's on the skidpad. I thought that was unreal and asked if they meant .02-.03 but they said it was to help up to .2 or .3. If I could see an increase of .1 and not ruin the way the balance of the car (as gpatmac mentioned) that would be great for a cost that is less than $500.
If I get one I would be more than happy to give my share of results. I guess they are already have some Auto-x guys using it (Team Blew if I remember correctly) and they had great things to say. I don't know if carlab sponsors them or not... thats another story.
07-30-2005, 11:10 PM
#6
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26
X-Brace installed and First Drive
Just got home from driving my 05 STI with the X-Brace. I went down to CARLAB and had the chromoly version installed by Tim Hulett. He is with Team BLEW. He has been driving and racing with an X-Brace.
The X-Brace look substantial and well made. It took awhile to install it since they want to take pics on my car for instructions later to aid for do it yourselfers. Andrew Quillin from CARLAB champion this project. I wasn't interested in the test results since I took a chance and bought one to try.
As I drove off their shop, I noticed the ride is firmer in the back, but not unacceptable for me. There was no noise or clunking sound which many suspension parts do make. I am trying to stay stock with minor mods. I had the front struts mod with 1.5 negative camber with no caster changes. I did not use camber plates or lower the car to get that. Other than that, my car has stock suspension.
On the way home on 5 Fwy, the firmnest did not bother me. I did notice the car wanted to go straight and need more steering effort to turn. After the negative camber mod, the steering effort was higher already and now with the X-Brace, required even more effort.
I decided to go up hWY 2, Angeles Crest Hwy, which I am familiar with a stretch of road I usually drive to test out the mods and tire pressure. With the car stock, the steering was very easy, but understeer a bit with the auto center diff setting. I can get less understeer with the set manual and preferred drive that way.
With the neg camber mod, I can turn in quicker, but it can feel less planted on the rear wheels. I normally try not to over cook going in and try to use throttle to set up the turn. I feel less secure to drive very hard set up this way. Maybe I am not use to the car, only 2000 miles then. I had a WRX wagon before this with neg camber mod, sedan rear bar and front and back endlinks. The WRX understeers a little compare to the stock STI.
The car now does understeer more than before, but because the X-Brace give me a much more secure feel and less body roll( can you believe that?) that I can drive faster thru the corners. For the ones who know Hwy 2, the lower section has slower corners so it's hard to go very fast. Most corners are taken around high 60s on the uphill drive. The only thing i wish is a little less stifness from the X-Brace on the uphill drive. The mild steel version is a little softer.
Going down was much better and I can feel less understeer and can go faster than before. It still feel very secure and I had to go in the corner faster to get some over steer. I guess there is a speed at each corner taken to get just the car just short of over steer. I think set up this way suits the higher speeds turn on the track and can believe the claim of better track times.
Here are some stats: My tire pressure was at 32 psi all around cold I checked this morning. I did put in 2 more psi later after the canyon run and do notice easier to turn. I will try to run the canyon again with the 2 psi differential to see if the it is closer to neutral steer.
So what next? I am not sure, but I would like to tune out some understeer, hopefully by tire pressure. If not, by strut brace for the front, adjustable rear sway bar. I think it is really personal taste and driving style how suspension is setup. You really need to try yourself and someone's opionion is just that.
I am glad I bought the X-Brace. I just need to balance my car the way I like to drive AT MY LEVEL OF SKILL. Maybe need others to drive the car for feedback.
The X-Brace look substantial and well made. It took awhile to install it since they want to take pics on my car for instructions later to aid for do it yourselfers. Andrew Quillin from CARLAB champion this project. I wasn't interested in the test results since I took a chance and bought one to try.
As I drove off their shop, I noticed the ride is firmer in the back, but not unacceptable for me. There was no noise or clunking sound which many suspension parts do make. I am trying to stay stock with minor mods. I had the front struts mod with 1.5 negative camber with no caster changes. I did not use camber plates or lower the car to get that. Other than that, my car has stock suspension.
On the way home on 5 Fwy, the firmnest did not bother me. I did notice the car wanted to go straight and need more steering effort to turn. After the negative camber mod, the steering effort was higher already and now with the X-Brace, required even more effort.
I decided to go up hWY 2, Angeles Crest Hwy, which I am familiar with a stretch of road I usually drive to test out the mods and tire pressure. With the car stock, the steering was very easy, but understeer a bit with the auto center diff setting. I can get less understeer with the set manual and preferred drive that way.
With the neg camber mod, I can turn in quicker, but it can feel less planted on the rear wheels. I normally try not to over cook going in and try to use throttle to set up the turn. I feel less secure to drive very hard set up this way. Maybe I am not use to the car, only 2000 miles then. I had a WRX wagon before this with neg camber mod, sedan rear bar and front and back endlinks. The WRX understeers a little compare to the stock STI.
The car now does understeer more than before, but because the X-Brace give me a much more secure feel and less body roll( can you believe that?) that I can drive faster thru the corners. For the ones who know Hwy 2, the lower section has slower corners so it's hard to go very fast. Most corners are taken around high 60s on the uphill drive. The only thing i wish is a little less stifness from the X-Brace on the uphill drive. The mild steel version is a little softer.
Going down was much better and I can feel less understeer and can go faster than before. It still feel very secure and I had to go in the corner faster to get some over steer. I guess there is a speed at each corner taken to get just the car just short of over steer. I think set up this way suits the higher speeds turn on the track and can believe the claim of better track times.
Here are some stats: My tire pressure was at 32 psi all around cold I checked this morning. I did put in 2 more psi later after the canyon run and do notice easier to turn. I will try to run the canyon again with the 2 psi differential to see if the it is closer to neutral steer.
So what next? I am not sure, but I would like to tune out some understeer, hopefully by tire pressure. If not, by strut brace for the front, adjustable rear sway bar. I think it is really personal taste and driving style how suspension is setup. You really need to try yourself and someone's opionion is just that.
I am glad I bought the X-Brace. I just need to balance my car the way I like to drive AT MY LEVEL OF SKILL. Maybe need others to drive the car for feedback.
Last edited by evwoo; 07-30-2005 at 11:54 PM.
07-31-2005, 01:26 AM
#7
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26
Went out for another drive with the new tire press ( 2 extra lbs in the front ). The steering is definitely easier, but still wants to go straight. If I drive the car harder, the better the car corners up to the limit. The rear end behaves very well and hard to get it to come out. At least at my level of skill. Anyway, oversteer is not necessary faster, just looks more impressive. That goes that same with drift.
I am impress the way the rear end just tracts like on rails. I took smaller radius turns as well as medium and the car drive very nice, but higher steering effort. It drives like a man's car compared with the real easy steering stock. I just would like a little bit less effort. may need to get the car align again to see if I can get that. I am greedy! I want my car the way I like it.
I may think about a front strut to balanced it a little more stiffness in the front. Any suggestions? Cusco Ti, Carbon STI or Alum STI ? Too bad cannot test drive one before buying.
I am impress the way the rear end just tracts like on rails. I took smaller radius turns as well as medium and the car drive very nice, but higher steering effort. It drives like a man's car compared with the real easy steering stock. I just would like a little bit less effort. may need to get the car align again to see if I can get that. I am greedy! I want my car the way I like it.
I may think about a front strut to balanced it a little more stiffness in the front. Any suggestions? Cusco Ti, Carbon STI or Alum STI ? Too bad cannot test drive one before buying.
07-31-2005, 09:04 AM
#8
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 418
Car Info: 05 WRB STi
Hey Everett, I am the other STi driver that was hanging around waiting to get mine done. Glad you like, I will be leaving soon to get my installed as well. I'm getting a little excited after reading your testimonial.
07-31-2005, 12:36 PM
#10
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Location: Sacramento CA
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Car Info: 02 Impreza WRX sedan
I'm very interested to hear how this brace can improve a car's skidpad g-reading by .2 to .3 g. That would mean a stock STi that generated .87 g on the skidpad can now generate between 1.07 and 1.17 g! 
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0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
07-31-2005, 01:10 PM
#11
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26
Don't have any way to measure skidpad. To me it is just numbers. Higher skidpad is only one indication of cornering speed. The car can have high numbers but understeer moderately. I think some one mentioned balanced is more important to me.
I think I am going to try a cusco chassis brace next week to see if I can get less understeer but not give up the rear grip. Have any one try the GT version or the Tanabe? Please give some feedback.
It was very nice that I got a call from Tim, the installer, racer guy. He wanted my feedback and also invited me to go to track and autocross event to learn more about other people's setup. Good way to find my limit without going down a canyon, smash into a wall or another vehicle.
WRX-Pilot, let me know you feedback after you try the X-Brace?
I think I am going to try a cusco chassis brace next week to see if I can get less understeer but not give up the rear grip. Have any one try the GT version or the Tanabe? Please give some feedback.
It was very nice that I got a call from Tim, the installer, racer guy. He wanted my feedback and also invited me to go to track and autocross event to learn more about other people's setup. Good way to find my limit without going down a canyon, smash into a wall or another vehicle.
WRX-Pilot, let me know you feedback after you try the X-Brace?
07-31-2005, 04:38 PM
#12
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 418
Car Info: 05 WRB STi
Well, what I found with mine was less flex in the rear of the car which I what I was hoping to achieve. I also immediately noticed the rear of the car to be stiffer, you can feel less play in the rear when driving over normal every day bumps. The car is much more confident in the rear and rear tires squeal less than before around a tight turn. I haven't had a good place to test this though, only a few sharp turns here and there and so far I like it so I want to get on the track where I feel more liberated to push the car.
If anyone here in so-cal knows a safe environment near me and whats to see what it feels like let me know. The X-brace at this point is the only modification to the car (unless you want to count an intercooler screen and a dead pedal
).
As far as testing I do have a Gtech and it does test lateral G's. If anyone knew a place to make a skidpad without getting into trouble I would be willing to bring my car and Gtech and test it against a stock STi if anyone is interested. I am in Dana Point.
If anyone here in so-cal knows a safe environment near me and whats to see what it feels like let me know. The X-brace at this point is the only modification to the car (unless you want to count an intercooler screen and a dead pedal
).As far as testing I do have a Gtech and it does test lateral G's. If anyone knew a place to make a skidpad without getting into trouble I would be willing to bring my car and Gtech and test it against a stock STi if anyone is interested. I am in Dana Point.
08-01-2005, 10:44 PM
#13
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26
Drove my STI tonight to have Clear Bra put on. Notice how much livelier it drives without the wng. Had to take it off to have it repainted. Some AXXX scratched it and it cost me $150 to paint it. Car does look stealth I might add. Wingless Wonder, do you noticed less down force with your car? I can rotate much easier and the lighter wieght makes the car accel faster, at least seat of the pants experience. I think for Auto-X may benefit wingless.
I guess the downforce keeps the rear planted with more traction so harder to rotate the rear to a more neutral cornering. Will have the wing back in a few days and a Cusco Type 2 chassis brace will be installed by then. Hopefully will help to decrease understeer to my personal taste.
I guess the downforce keeps the rear planted with more traction so harder to rotate the rear to a more neutral cornering. Will have the wing back in a few days and a Cusco Type 2 chassis brace will be installed by then. Hopefully will help to decrease understeer to my personal taste.
08-01-2005, 10:54 PM
#14
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 418
Car Info: 05 WRB STi
From what I got from Tim removing the wing will work against you really because the rules look at that as weight reduction.
I just better see you at Auto-X school
I just better see you at Auto-X school
Last edited by WRX-pilot; 08-02-2005 at 08:23 AM.
08-03-2005, 09:17 PM
#15
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Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 10,029
Car Info: 02 Impreza WRX sedan
Origami posted by evwoo
Wingless Wonder, do you noticed less down force with your car?
Wingless Wonder, do you noticed less down force with your car?
If you really want to lessen understeer for little expense, the adjustable rear anti-sway bar is immediately noticeable.
Chassis bracing is good but even a full cage won't turn a stock-suspensioned STi into a world beater. The stock STi suspension is a compromise for those who use the car as a daily driver. Nothing beats a welded-in cage and full seam welding on the body and frame rails for chassis stiffness. Fully triangulated roll cages on the street can be hazardous to its occupants, though.
My apologies for the fragmented thread. I've split off several posts from one member until vendor issues are resolved. Companies and individuals who are interested in becoming i-Club vendors can send PM to Alex (Imprezer) or any other Staff Member.
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0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush