2008 Subaru Impreza
02-13-2006 | 04:26 PM
#16
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 406
From: Bay Area
Car Info: 08 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 10
Originally Posted by SubyN00by
^ that's gonna drive the price of it up...
02-13-2006 | 04:29 PM
#17
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 414
From: Nether reach of CA delta
Car Info: 03 WRX Sedan MBP/17X7.5 SSR Comps/225 Kumho MX
I agree with you, flat tire. Japanese exports to the US pretty much followed the Honda model established in the 1960's. The cars were small, which earned them a niche market that didn't grow until Americans decided they wanted smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles after the first Arab oil embargo in 1973.
American discovered and fell in love with the high quality and value they found in the Japanese imports, and American manufacturers began to follow suit, producing higher-quality vehicles for the first time since the 1930's. Heck, I have a 2000 Pontiac Montana shorty van in addition to the WRX (and a Ford Ranger) and the Pontiac quality is right up there with the Japanese.
The Japanese workplace and Japanese workers differ from their counterparts in the US. Until recently Japanese companies took care of their workers for life, looking after health care, dependent care and retirement. Most Japanese were loyal to their company for life and this resulted in a high degree of pride shared by worker and employer alike. Alas, this relationship may be fading away as Japanese companies face increasing world wide competition.
The stress, competition and change in Japese society is beginning to take a toll on it's people, too. Acording to World Health Organization data for year 2000, The suicide rate in Japan is 24.1 per 100K persons. In the US, it's 10.4 per 100K. (the worst, incidentally is Russia: no jobs, lots of cheap vodka and 39.4 per 100K.)
American discovered and fell in love with the high quality and value they found in the Japanese imports, and American manufacturers began to follow suit, producing higher-quality vehicles for the first time since the 1930's. Heck, I have a 2000 Pontiac Montana shorty van in addition to the WRX (and a Ford Ranger) and the Pontiac quality is right up there with the Japanese.
The Japanese workplace and Japanese workers differ from their counterparts in the US. Until recently Japanese companies took care of their workers for life, looking after health care, dependent care and retirement. Most Japanese were loyal to their company for life and this resulted in a high degree of pride shared by worker and employer alike. Alas, this relationship may be fading away as Japanese companies face increasing world wide competition.
The stress, competition and change in Japese society is beginning to take a toll on it's people, too. Acording to World Health Organization data for year 2000, The suicide rate in Japan is 24.1 per 100K persons. In the US, it's 10.4 per 100K. (the worst, incidentally is Russia: no jobs, lots of cheap vodka and 39.4 per 100K.)
02-13-2006 | 04:49 PM
#18
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Posts: 3,648
From: SBAIC-South BayArea Impreza Club-Campbell, CA-Thur
Car Info: 2003 PSM STi
Originally Posted by ZK
No .. it is cheaper to manufacture the cars in the US than in Japan. Cost of labor is cheaper here and no need to ship cars long distances. That's why so many Japanese companies produce cars in the USA.
A perfect example is from General Motors....in 1995 and earlier, all Chevy and GMC Suburbans, Tahoes, and K-series pickups were built and assembled in the plant in Wisconsin (My dads brother works at this plant) and in 1996, GM moved all of the assembly for these "trucks" to a plant they opened up in Mexico......why did they do this?......simply to cut costs.
-Ted
02-13-2006 | 04:53 PM
#19
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by flat_tire
Just wanted to add my two cents (not that anybody really cares).
Japanese automakers did what American car makers could not do. Make quality cars cheaply.
In the competition for market share (back in the late '60s early '70s?), there were two different options that could have been taken. One (taken by domestic manufacturers) was to cut the cost of the car by sacrificing part quality. This could be any part in the car ranging from material choices, or going to the lowest quoted supplier. This resulted in a cheaper car in every definition of the word.
The other option was to cut costs by looking for non-value added operations within the current process. This is where Japanese manufacturers exceled. They developed processes that would allow them to build quality cars at a lower cost. This resulted in low-priced quality cars (as opposed to cheap cars).
This resulted in the perception that foreign cars were cheaper and better then domestic cars (which they were), and market shares reflected that. In response to this, American Manufacturers began adopting Japanese manufacturing principles. The result has been dramatic improvements in the cost and quality of Domestic cars reducing the gap between domestic and foreign cars.
However, there is still the perception that all foreign cars are superior to all domestic cars. This will gradually decrease as time goes on, but everybody has their personal biases based on their background and how they were raised. (My parents were domestic car buyers - chevy in particular).
Obviously there are several other factors that influence global economics, but like I stated...this is just my two cents.
-CZ
Japanese automakers did what American car makers could not do. Make quality cars cheaply.
In the competition for market share (back in the late '60s early '70s?), there were two different options that could have been taken. One (taken by domestic manufacturers) was to cut the cost of the car by sacrificing part quality. This could be any part in the car ranging from material choices, or going to the lowest quoted supplier. This resulted in a cheaper car in every definition of the word.
The other option was to cut costs by looking for non-value added operations within the current process. This is where Japanese manufacturers exceled. They developed processes that would allow them to build quality cars at a lower cost. This resulted in low-priced quality cars (as opposed to cheap cars).
This resulted in the perception that foreign cars were cheaper and better then domestic cars (which they were), and market shares reflected that. In response to this, American Manufacturers began adopting Japanese manufacturing principles. The result has been dramatic improvements in the cost and quality of Domestic cars reducing the gap between domestic and foreign cars.
However, there is still the perception that all foreign cars are superior to all domestic cars. This will gradually decrease as time goes on, but everybody has their personal biases based on their background and how they were raised. (My parents were domestic car buyers - chevy in particular).
Obviously there are several other factors that influence global economics, but like I stated...this is just my two cents.
-CZ
As for parts quality, where I see the Americans cutting the most quality are in the interiors. However, in the favor of American manufacturers, their interiors are improving at a reasonable rate, but where another problem with that lies is that while the American manufacturers are improving their interiors, so are the foreign manufacturers. For every step the Americans make, the foreign companies take a step, so therefore it does the Americans no good. The Americans are going to have to go the extra mile such as Hyundai has done. Hyundai is making progress by leaps and bounds.
Well, times have no passed, and I contradict myself, but is there really a such thing as a foreign car anymore? Honda, Toyota, and other large foreign auto manufacturers are all building cars in America. I'm interested to see what happens with the quality of the foreign manufacturers now, especially since Americans will more than likely be working at the assembly plants.
02-13-2006 | 04:56 PM
#20
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by GotBoost?
actually thats not necessarily true.....The United States is one of the highest income paying countries on the planet.....which is exactly why alot of major US companies (Microsoft, Cisco and HP to name a few) are outsourcing to places like China, India and the Philipines, etc. where labor is ALOT cheaper, and the workers are still working just as hard, if not harder. This is especially apparent in industries like consumer electronics, clothing, automobiles, and software, or any industry where a "Tech Support" department is needed, or even an assembly plant.
A perfect example is from General Motors....in 1995 and earlier, all Chevy and GMC Suburbans, Tahoes, and K-series pickups were built and assembled in the plant in Wisconsin (My dads brother works at this plant) and in 1996, GM moved all of the assembly for these "trucks" to a plant they opened up in Mexico......why did they do this?......simply to cut costs.
-Ted
A perfect example is from General Motors....in 1995 and earlier, all Chevy and GMC Suburbans, Tahoes, and K-series pickups were built and assembled in the plant in Wisconsin (My dads brother works at this plant) and in 1996, GM moved all of the assembly for these "trucks" to a plant they opened up in Mexico......why did they do this?......simply to cut costs.
-Ted
02-13-2006 | 07:03 PM
#22
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by HomerJay
I think the Jetta's and Bugs are made in Mexico. I could be wrong. Toyota hasn't suffered any ill effects from building in the US.
02-14-2006 | 11:55 AM
#23
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 406
From: Bay Area
Car Info: 08 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 10
Yes, but this is Japan.. the cost of living there is more expensive than the US. The reason the Japanese companies open manufacturing plants in the US for cars is due to costs. It costs them more to make them in Japan and ship it here.
Take a look at all the "Japanese" cars on the road, most of them are designed and built in the USA. Read the sales sticker on a new Civic/Accord/Camry and it is usually more than 80% not Japanese parts or manufactured. Pop the hood and you see AC Delco parts and American made plastics.
Take a look at all the "Japanese" cars on the road, most of them are designed and built in the USA. Read the sales sticker on a new Civic/Accord/Camry and it is usually more than 80% not Japanese parts or manufactured. Pop the hood and you see AC Delco parts and American made plastics.
Originally Posted by GotBoost?
actually thats not necessarily true.....The United States is one of the highest income paying countries on the planet.....which is exactly why alot of major US companies (Microsoft, Cisco and HP to name a few) are outsourcing to places like China, India and the Philipines, etc. where labor is ALOT cheaper, and the workers are still working just as hard, if not harder. This is especially apparent in industries like consumer electronics, clothing, automobiles, and software, or any industry where a "Tech Support" department is needed, or even an assembly plant.
A perfect example is from General Motors....in 1995 and earlier, all Chevy and GMC Suburbans, Tahoes, and K-series pickups were built and assembled in the plant in Wisconsin (My dads brother works at this plant) and in 1996, GM moved all of the assembly for these "trucks" to a plant they opened up in Mexico......why did they do this?......simply to cut costs.
-Ted
A perfect example is from General Motors....in 1995 and earlier, all Chevy and GMC Suburbans, Tahoes, and K-series pickups were built and assembled in the plant in Wisconsin (My dads brother works at this plant) and in 1996, GM moved all of the assembly for these "trucks" to a plant they opened up in Mexico......why did they do this?......simply to cut costs.
-Ted
02-14-2006 | 02:12 PM
#25
Originally Posted by '05 STi
I disagree regarding "cost cutting" throughout the 60s and the entire 70s. The 60s were one of the greatest periods for American autos. There is a reason that people have adopted the saying, "They sure don't build them like they used to." Til this day I still see a TON of classic American cars on the road; restored and unrestored alike. When is the last time any of us can honestly say that we've seen a 1980 Subaru on the road? How about a Honda CVCC? A 1990 Toyota Camry?
02-14-2006 | 02:16 PM
#26
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by subie OCD
You said it yourself -- because they're classics! You cant compare american classics to disposable econoboxes. BTW I did own a 1984 subaru wagon gl handed down from my dad. Lasted 206K miles on the original clutch, numerous accidents, ect. I wasnt very cool though driving that in HS!!
Here is your quote in regards to the 60s and 70s cars.
:
One (taken by domestic manufacturers) was to cut the cost of the car by sacrificing part quality. This could be any part in the car ranging from material choices, or going to the lowest quoted supplier. This resulted in a cheaper car in every definition of the word.
I arguably believe that the best cars to come out of the domestic manufacturer's lines were the following:
The Camaro isn't quick by today's standards, but considering the time period it was a pretty good performer. It also really delivered in the handling field (0.92g for the '85-'87 IROC Z). And then of course, there was the unforgettable Buick Grand National, Buick T-Type Regal, and the GNX. Performance success was repeated once again with Pontiac's 1989 Trans Am GTA Turbo, which included a variant of the Buick GNX's motor.
I'm not a big Subaru buff, so I can't say what it was, but a buddy of mine knew a guy that had an older wagon and the sucker lasted 365,000 miles!
The body panels were literally rusted through, yet the little Subie just would not die.
Last edited by '05 STi; 02-14-2006 at 02:25 PM.
02-14-2006 | 03:09 PM
#28
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 17
From: oregon
Car Info: 2006 WRX Limited
So my dates are off...
You are correct in the fact that late '60s and '70s American Cars were solid and well built. But is was in this time frame that the Japanese started their manufacturing improvements. It wasn't until early '80s or so that American Manufacturers started making cheap cars to compete with Japanese cars.
My point remains the same that American Companies lowered quality to make cars cheap whereas Japanese companies improved their manufacturing processes to lower costs. My second point was that today American Companies have closed the gap and are no longer significantly lower in quality. Like many people have said, a lot of Japanese owned companies manufacture here in the States.
If I am off on my dates it is merely because I wasn't even alive at the time
My point remains the same that American Companies lowered quality to make cars cheap whereas Japanese companies improved their manufacturing processes to lower costs. My second point was that today American Companies have closed the gap and are no longer significantly lower in quality. Like many people have said, a lot of Japanese owned companies manufacture here in the States.
If I am off on my dates it is merely because I wasn't even alive at the time
02-14-2006 | 03:22 PM
#29
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by subie OCD
hehe, I think you meant to quote flat tire...frankly I dont know jack about manufacturing techniques of the 60's and 70's.
My apologies.
02-14-2006 | 03:25 PM
#30
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
From: Frederick, Maryland
Car Info: 2005 Subaru WRX STi
Originally Posted by flat_tire
You are correct in the fact that late '60s and '70s American Cars were solid and well built. But is was in this time frame that the Japanese started their manufacturing improvements. It wasn't until early '80s or so that American Manufacturers started making cheap cars to compete with Japanese cars.
My point remains the same that American Companies lowered quality to make cars cheap whereas Japanese companies improved their manufacturing processes to lower costs. My second point was that today American Companies have closed the gap and are no longer significantly lower in quality. Like many people have said, a lot of Japanese owned companies manufacture here in the States.
If I am off on my dates it is merely because I wasn't even alive at the time
My point remains the same that American Companies lowered quality to make cars cheap whereas Japanese companies improved their manufacturing processes to lower costs. My second point was that today American Companies have closed the gap and are no longer significantly lower in quality. Like many people have said, a lot of Japanese owned companies manufacture here in the States.
If I am off on my dates it is merely because I wasn't even alive at the time
Every day I see 3rd generation F-Bodies (a lot in great shape), 5.0L Mustangs, Impala SSes, Caprices, Crown Victorias, Tauruses, etc.