Sti MSRP (or markup) lists?
03-16-2003, 03:00 PM
#31
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It's so simple to me but maybe I'm in the minority.....
I'm exhausted............
I'm exhausted............
03-17-2003, 04:38 PM
#32
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hey Lance,
I was just wondering how the adjusted mark up works. I am guaranteed MSRP, but how can the adjustment affect this? I know I can be charged more, but what makes this adjustment feesable (sp?)? Do they add more options, charge for destination, or what?
I was just wondering how the adjusted mark up works. I am guaranteed MSRP, but how can the adjustment affect this? I know I can be charged more, but what makes this adjustment feesable (sp?)? Do they add more options, charge for destination, or what?
03-18-2003, 06:28 AM
#33
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If you're guaranteed MSRP then that's what you pay. Just make sure that what the selling price is on the contract it what the car has on the sticker.
If the price is "adjusted" let's say in this case for pure dealer mark up and not any extra add ons, there should be a "second" sticker on the car showing what the extra amount is. Sometimes you will see additional items such as wheels, window tint, etc. and they should be disclosed on a secondary sticker as well.
If the price is "adjusted" let's say in this case for pure dealer mark up and not any extra add ons, there should be a "second" sticker on the car showing what the extra amount is. Sometimes you will see additional items such as wheels, window tint, etc. and they should be disclosed on a secondary sticker as well.
03-18-2003, 07:13 PM
#34
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LanceK,
To be honest with you, I tried to sleep through most of my economics classes because I think it's a load of $%*&. I strongly dislike beancounters because they are slowly screwing up our world...maybe it's just cause I'm an engineer and have to deal with those morons telling me how to do my job...I'm not bitter or anything...IDIOTS!
You have a valid point with supply and demand. As long as there is a sucker to pay, then you really can't fault the dealers for selling/gouging. The problem is circular, however. The suckers pay more and then the dealers charge more, then they pay more, etc. etc. The problem with this is that, for normal people like me, I can't afford any of this $*&%* anymore. Look what they did to the housing market, gas prices, car prices, etc.
The bottom line is that people have to stop paying these insane amounts of money. American Capitalism is based on profit: the more the better and there is never such a thing as too much profit.
There may be nothing wrong ethically with dealers charging more than MSRP, but I'm gonna whine about them anyway 'cause it's a democracy, dammit!
<Getting off soap box now>
To be honest with you, I tried to sleep through most of my economics classes because I think it's a load of $%*&. I strongly dislike beancounters because they are slowly screwing up our world...maybe it's just cause I'm an engineer and have to deal with those morons telling me how to do my job...I'm not bitter or anything...IDIOTS!
You have a valid point with supply and demand. As long as there is a sucker to pay, then you really can't fault the dealers for selling/gouging. The problem is circular, however. The suckers pay more and then the dealers charge more, then they pay more, etc. etc. The problem with this is that, for normal people like me, I can't afford any of this $*&%* anymore. Look what they did to the housing market, gas prices, car prices, etc.
The bottom line is that people have to stop paying these insane amounts of money. American Capitalism is based on profit: the more the better and there is never such a thing as too much profit.
There may be nothing wrong ethically with dealers charging more than MSRP, but I'm gonna whine about them anyway 'cause it's a democracy, dammit!
<Getting off soap box now>
03-23-2003, 02:02 AM
#35
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It ain't necessarily so...
LanceK: "The price is whatever the maket bears period."
Not true.
Manufacturers are not allowed to impose price floors on dealerships--that's retail price maintenance, and is illegal.
However, they can impose price ceilings. Not all choose to, and some are prevented by pre-existing contractual arrangements--i.e. they negotiated away this capability when dealerships or distributorships were first set up.
But, for example, Lexus and Mercedes do enforce, in effect, MSRP-as-maximum policies (they have the power to cut allocations if the dealers step out of line). The dealers have workarounds--immediately after their respective introductions, many "used" (500 - 1000 miles) SC400s and SL500s became available at eyebrow-raising markups--but in general, if you sit on a Lexus or Mercedes waitlist, you'll get your car at MSRP.
Why would a manufacturer choose to interfere in "what the market will bear"? Answer: they get none of the upside of dealer markups (at least directly, though the health, i.e. profitability, of their sales channels is of some concern), and all of the downside, in terms of potential buyers getting pissed off enough to switch brands, often permanently.
There are several more subtle arguments about why a manufacturer might or might not want to intervene in setting/enforcing price ceilings for "hot" models, but the point is, LanceK's position, regardless of his industry experience, is too simplistic. The manufacturers can play a role, if they've chosen to.
Not true.
Manufacturers are not allowed to impose price floors on dealerships--that's retail price maintenance, and is illegal.
However, they can impose price ceilings. Not all choose to, and some are prevented by pre-existing contractual arrangements--i.e. they negotiated away this capability when dealerships or distributorships were first set up.
But, for example, Lexus and Mercedes do enforce, in effect, MSRP-as-maximum policies (they have the power to cut allocations if the dealers step out of line). The dealers have workarounds--immediately after their respective introductions, many "used" (500 - 1000 miles) SC400s and SL500s became available at eyebrow-raising markups--but in general, if you sit on a Lexus or Mercedes waitlist, you'll get your car at MSRP.
Why would a manufacturer choose to interfere in "what the market will bear"? Answer: they get none of the upside of dealer markups (at least directly, though the health, i.e. profitability, of their sales channels is of some concern), and all of the downside, in terms of potential buyers getting pissed off enough to switch brands, often permanently.
There are several more subtle arguments about why a manufacturer might or might not want to intervene in setting/enforcing price ceilings for "hot" models, but the point is, LanceK's position, regardless of his industry experience, is too simplistic. The manufacturers can play a role, if they've chosen to.
03-23-2003, 07:35 AM
#36
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Most of my comments have nothing to do with my industry experience or my educational experience.
If you noticed I stated that parameters affecting a price on a particular product can be very complex and are constantly changing. I also stated that agreements, policies, laws etc. vary from dealer to dealer, manufacturer to manufacturer, state to state, and also vary to what extent they are enforced.
The simple point I wanted to express is that Dealer's aren't entirely to blame for markups. People willing to pay the premiums bare at least half the responsibility. And that if a Dealer is taking a price that a customer is willing to pay he is not a bad guy or "dirty dealer" as earlier stated.
We don't have the time and/or forum to discuss micro and macro economics and the effects of those theories on the automotive industry. The subject alone is so complicated it could never be debated substantially in a lifetime!
If you noticed I stated that parameters affecting a price on a particular product can be very complex and are constantly changing. I also stated that agreements, policies, laws etc. vary from dealer to dealer, manufacturer to manufacturer, state to state, and also vary to what extent they are enforced.
The simple point I wanted to express is that Dealer's aren't entirely to blame for markups. People willing to pay the premiums bare at least half the responsibility. And that if a Dealer is taking a price that a customer is willing to pay he is not a bad guy or "dirty dealer" as earlier stated.
We don't have the time and/or forum to discuss micro and macro economics and the effects of those theories on the automotive industry. The subject alone is so complicated it could never be debated substantially in a lifetime!
03-27-2003, 10:07 AM
#37
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You know this thread is hosed. The whole point isn't a debate on supply side economy and free market but where to find dealers who aren't marking up the product. If we shop those dealers from a handy list here the ones that have them marked up will not sell there product as quickly and will learn a lesson before marking up again with the next new product. Yes they have every right to do it and we have every right as consumers to post a list here advocating dealers who do not. We want to reward dealers that deal straight with us enthusiasts and let the others eat empty showrooms. This seems like a rather simple concept that has worked very well on other boards out there (vwvortex,allfordmustangs, etc.) Eventually dealers learn the power of the internet and groups of us drivers and stop screwing around with supply and demand, to start garnering good will and volume. Simple enough? 
03-28-2003, 06:34 AM
#38
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Good point!
The real reason we're all here is to learn about good dealers who deal fair and to learn about parts and mods.
The real reason we're all here is to learn about good dealers who deal fair and to learn about parts and mods.
03-28-2003, 12:37 PM
#39
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Originally posted by moabrat
You know this thread is hosed. The whole point isn't a debate on supply side economy and free market but where to find dealers who aren't marking up the product. If we shop those dealers from a handy list here the ones that have them marked up will not sell there product as quickly and will learn a lesson before marking up again with the next new product. Yes they have every right to do it and we have every right as consumers to post a list here advocating dealers who do not. We want to reward dealers that deal straight with us enthusiasts and let the others eat empty showrooms. This seems like a rather simple concept that has worked very well on other boards out there (vwvortex,allfordmustangs, etc.) Eventually dealers learn the power of the internet and groups of us drivers and stop screwing around with supply and demand, to start garnering good will and volume. Simple enough?
You know this thread is hosed. The whole point isn't a debate on supply side economy and free market but where to find dealers who aren't marking up the product. If we shop those dealers from a handy list here the ones that have them marked up will not sell there product as quickly and will learn a lesson before marking up again with the next new product. Yes they have every right to do it and we have every right as consumers to post a list here advocating dealers who do not. We want to reward dealers that deal straight with us enthusiasts and let the others eat empty showrooms. This seems like a rather simple concept that has worked very well on other boards out there (vwvortex,allfordmustangs, etc.) Eventually dealers learn the power of the internet and groups of us drivers and stop screwing around with supply and demand, to start garnering good will and volume. Simple enough?
Way to summarize moabrat!Tim
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