Janq

I think my first effort will be to find an automatic spell check tool/plug-in that can correct typos and net slang so that I can better understand what the heck the NOS fans are trying to say.

Then if I have any cash left over maybe I'll look into moving to your town where they have this new "40% oxygen" atmospheric 'air'. In my town and all the places I have ever been the atmosphere is a constant 21%. The only exception to this well known and proven rule (+/- 19%) I have seen is in diving where folks might use 'enriched oxygen' aka 'Nitrox' to prevent nitrogen saturation ('the bends').

Who needs the expense and effort of NOS when I can just move to your town and get an instant doubling of oxygen to my car and I won't even need a 'ram air'!
But then I still have to remap my ECU, wouldn't I, so as to maintain proper stoichiometric balance (air to fuel mixture) so as not lean out my engine burn out my valves & seals or worst my piston heads and actually _loose_ power and "ruin" my engine.
But hey, with all that 40% oxygen air plus running NOS I bet you boys have some great tech shops and real cheap internals for sale at your local Pep Boys.

Would you mind posting a map to your town with that super oxygen? Oh, and be sure to put a big black 'X' on the location as I might 'red out' from the tremendous increase in your 40%oxygenated 'air'.

Thx 4 all da n4mation.
U r reely cool for sharing this n foe!

- Janq

Janq

No, he is wrong. Period.

Further, if you read above this subject has been shot down more than thrice already but it just keeps popping back up. It reminds me of the "Whack-a-Mole" table at 'Chuck E. Cheeses', annoying after about four whacks.

One other thing non-tech thing to keep in mind regaridng NOS.
State and local legislation!
Specifically it is illegal in many states, locallities and principalities (Canada) ot posess, ship and or install NOS for any reason other than generally medical (as a sedative) or industrial reasons.
Why? Because this stuff is dangerous, volatile and flammable.

The NOS boys don't ever mention that during their soap box preachings. Many of these back yard mechanics are using borrowed Craftsman tools (standard only of course!) following installation insturctions they downloaded off some site like RacingFlix.com and take short cuts in order to 'test it out' quicker expecting to go back in and 'do it right' later after the prove it 'works'. At the safety expense of other folks on the road like my mom on her way to her doctors appt. or my wife taking our baby to playgroup, or you taking a quick jaunt over to Blockbuster.

So NOS boy is driving along with some new toy he knows nothing about at all and best case scenario it actually works, but then he realizes he's now got more speed than his suspension, tires or brakes can safely support. Or worst he under revs while hitting the button (i.e. misses a shift, lifts off the throttle, engine bogs due to instant lean out conditions, etc.) and boom nothing happens other than possibly a damaged intake or head or piston.
Or even worst before he even gets a chance to hit the bottle a fitting at the head works loose because he took a short cut and didn't properly hard mount and triple secure the bottle so it begins leaking NOS to atmoshpere (inside the car!) and the bottle which is under pressure breaks lose alarming the driver who looks away from the road not seeing a pedestrian and runs somones dad over.
Or something like that...

Me, I think I'll get my power from less dangerous and more predictable and long lasting options such as intake, exhaust or fuel quality mods. Or better yet how about taking a professional driving class or five and learn how to clutch & shift properly and when so as to get the 'hole shot' and keep it all the wya to the white line at the end of the sanctioned track I might be racing on far away from moms, kids and unsuspecting dads crossing their neighborhood street to return the neighbors weedwacker.

But hey, thats just my $.02.

- Janq

IllNastyImpreza

Thats all you needed to say ***boy. someone not get enough loving from his momy today? I was giving out a guestimate...thats why I said "something like 40%" you ignorent moron. If i knew EXACTLY I would have said EXACTLY. jesus christ....can someone try to help someone out without getting ragged on for SPELLING mistakes? If you have nothing better to do then pick your *** and read posts just to criticize them then I hope you have a nice life. and get the f*ck out of our posts.

phun

Janq: I believe you've made a friend.

Janq

Yeah I know...I'm so happy!

But seriously, okay I might have been a little hard.
The underlying point though is that he wasn't wrong by just a little bit he was off by a mile, on everything.

The oxygen percentage was just the most obvious.
Other examples included;

"Nitrous oxide is a gass wich when released( @ the press of a button) turns into a liquid that has a VERRY high % oxygen....i think its like 70% oxygen as apposed to your outside air wich is something like 40% oxygen."

* NOS does not 'spray' out as a "liquid".
- It's stored in liquid form in canisters because of its increased compressibility and ease of transport and relatively low 'wet storage' pressures. When released from the tank it changes phases within the lines via thermodynamics to a gas. In gas form at the intake it holds 1 oxygen atom per molecule of carrier gas (Nitrogen). Also during the conversion from a liquid to gas heat is drawn from the ambient air near the tank and lines causing an extreme temperature drop in the N02 itself. This results in the NO2 hitting the intake at very cold (below freezing!) temperatures, and well know how much internal combustion engines & mass air sensors love cold air. No of course the resulting NO2 gas warms up a bit when mixed with relatively hot ambient air but the result is a much cold air charge directly to the belly of your beast.
Oh, and to experience this phase change effect. Ask a friend or visit your local paintball shop/field and ask them to demonstrate to you a release of air from a tank. They commonly use carbon dioxide (CO2) which is sold in small aluminum canisters at near 800psi. When you bleed a paintball marker after use the liquid state CO2 stored in the tank changes phase to a gas base don heat extraction from ambient air via the bottle casing (a thermodynamic effect). Ih, and don't try to touch the gas that exits the bottle as its a freezing temps and pronlged exposure can result in nerve damage and/or instant frost bite.
They didn't tell you that suff in 'Fast and Furious' but you'll learn this stuff in junior high school science class. At least I did.

"Now when your engine recieves this 70% oxygen it can therefor put out MORE FUEL to burn with the O2".

* Yeah, that woulod be real cool except...where's this extra fuel come from? The MAS will detect the sudden & strange telling the ECU but it'll be confused about the data (out of its pre proogrammed parameters) and _maybe_ bring its setting up to max (whatever that might be) or maybe do nothing for a second or two thinking the MAS is having a problem (then you get a 'CEL' light!) and in that time stay at its regular settings.
Well either way the result is a steep increase in catalyst (oxygen) but unless you have upgraded your fuel injector and/or line pressure (fuel pump) you will end up in a lean out situation as you have now interrupted the extremely importnat stoichiometric balance of the engines 'breathing'. Oh, whats "stoichiometric" you say? No, its not an intake mod or large bird or a Snap-On diag tool. Its basically the ratio of air fuel mixture within your cyclinders at time of ignition. The optimum ratio of fuel to air is 14.7 to 1 (written as "14.7:1"). Now if you go jerking with the air ration then the fuel ratio must also be changed/adjusted in order to not run lean (too little fuel). Also in by modifting the fuel and air amount within the cylinder, you then increase the pressure within the cylinder on the power stroke. As noted most engines are over designed to be able to take additional cylinder pressure but do know life of the engine will be reduced without mod specific internal upgrades and/or maintenance.

Oh, and the Oscar Meyer balogna he said about turbo's was bogus too. Turbo's are the most efficient means of gaining real power and torque from an engine. There are zero losses due to using spent exhaust gasses. The increased air effectively inceases the mathmatical CID of the motor itself. Basically allowing a 4 cylinder to displace at 6 or even 8 cylinder displacements. The '80's Lotus Esprit Turbo is most famous for the amazing and extremely efficient methods of how turbocharging can greatly improve an egines performance.

Bottom line, if you are going to advocate something and do so as fact be sure that your quoted information is in fact based on fact & science. Not what your buddy told you or saw fictionalized in street race movie.

The science is actually pretty basic/simple and has been around and in practice for nearly a century.

- Janq

essogas

What is sad is, you know what the oxygen content of NOS is going to your engine but you don't know the oxygen content of air going into your own lungs. It's 21%.

Janq

You can't blame him though...our public schools education programs these days have gone to the dogs.
A few weeks ago I was atlaking with a kid who didn't know what "Pi" was. It come during a conversation about 'science' and he actually laughed at another kid who mentioned it for "making up crap to sound smart". I then jumped in to help the kid out ans explain that there is in fact a thing called Pi.

Oh, BTW these kids are in the 11th grade!

It makes me really sad for our worlds future.

- Janq

Janq

You are correct.
As with most gasses, noble or otherwise, a catalyst is required.
In the case of oxygen it wil of course not just spontaneoulsy catch fire nor will nitrogen or their combination Nitrous Oxide (NO2).

But, lord help ya if a catalyst is introduced in an oxygen rich and concentrated under pressure environment.
I'm not talking a big *** car exploding like from Fast N' Furious or Lethal Weapon to get things going. Just a small amount of fire or even an seemingly innocous spark is enough to get oxygen going like a son of a beach.

But please, don't believe a word of what I'm saying.
I am 100% and totally full of crap and don't know what the heck I'm talking about.

But do find out for yourself. Ask your local HS or college pprofessor or visit an industrial gasses supply shop or visit a local hospital or fire dept or run a check on the net.
Here I'll give you a head start via Google, Click Here.

Anything, as long as you inform yourself of the dangers before hand. Oh, and don't ask your friends who you know didn't do any research and don't ask the sales guy at the counter as he's trying to sell you a NOS setup and says 'a dry kit is totally safe, and afforadable too!'.

Have fun but be safe, live long and prosper.

- Janq

MyCre8n=Evlshn

OK...BULL****!!

Dammit, if there's one thing that gets me a bit pissed is when someone is talking on here and another...SOMEWHAT more knowledgeable...jerk tries to make them feel smaller than a pea.

Intellectual bullying deserves the same as physical bullying...a bigger, smarter, more educated person to come along and teach you not to be so damned high on your intellectual horse.

First of all, jerk...I mean Janq...I'm going to pick apart a few things that YOU wrote:

--janq writes, "I think my first effort will be to find an automatic spell check tool/plug-in that can correct typos..."
then he later writes,
"...effectively inceases the mathmatical CID of the motor itself." (that would be "increases" and "mathematical", no?)
and "greatly improve an egines performance."
(that would be "engine's" and note the apostrophe, it IS needed to indicate the posessive form, no?)
and "pre proogrammed parameters", "it can therefor put out", "keep in mind regaridng NOS", "ot posess", "installation insturctions", "all the wya to the white line", "and well know how much" (we all), "changes phase to a gas base don heat extraction" (couldn't really figure out WHAT you were trying to say here), "it can therefor", "that woulod be real cool", "extremely importnat", "air ration", " by modifting", "it wil"...
(These were all typos by janq)
janq then derides us with a sarchastic "Thx 4 all da n4mation. U r reely cool for sharing this n foe!" Well janq, I guess we weren't all watching our spelling so closely as you were!


But that's ok, you're a TECHNICAL genius anyway:

--janq writes, "Then if I have any cash left over maybe I'll look into moving to your town where they have this new "40% oxygen" atmospheric 'air'. In my town and all the places I have ever been the atmosphere is a constant 21%."

Thanks for so rudely making fun of the poor sot who was just chatting (even though he said he didn't really know but "something like")...but as long as you are going to spend pages deriding him for not paying attention in science class, I'll go ahead and give a demonstration of what an idiot you are:

Oxygen content of the atmosphere is 21% ONLY where there are NO particulates, NO carbon monoxide, and NO water vapor! Perhaps we should move to YOUR town then where you have no particulates or water vapor and the freeways don't get filled with CO. Oxygen content is about 20% in your town...unless of course YOU live in some special place where there is unpolluted and humidity-free air.
You then write, "The only exception to this well known and proven rule (+/- 19%) I have seen is in diving where folks might use 'enriched oxygen' aka 'Nitrox' to prevent nitrogen saturation ('the bends')."
Ok, I really have no idea what you are talking about with the (+/- 19%) but I anticipate you somehow trying to save face by claiming that you were referring to the "real" oxygen content. But then that wouldn't go along with deriding someone endlessly and then correcting him with the "21%" figure (besides, then you'd just be wrong twice). So whatever the "+/- 19%" rule is...it's not very well-known or proven. And Janq!! You've never seen any other exceptions except in diving with Nitrox???? My gosh, you poor boy...you've never been to a hospital, on an ambulance, or in an airplane??? I mean they clearly tell you at the beginning of every flight about the oxygen mask above your seat. Did you think they put regular air in the tanks on board? Or maybe you really never have flown on an airplane before! Well...they have these tanks with concentrated oxygen in them! You can breathe concentrations higher than 21% by simply wearing a mask or some nasal prongs...it's really neat and you should see it someday (at least watch a TV show, you might learn something).

Oh, and to get technical about the diving thing:
Not only Nitrox, but heliox and several other mixtures are also used.
Next: The bends is NOT from nitrogen saturation. Your blood does not need to be saturated with nitrogen to get the bends (it rarely is) and you can have nitrogen saturation without getting the bends. The bends are the result of nitrogen bubbles forming in various tissues (often at joints and causing a person to double-over in pain...thus lending the lay term "bends") when nitrogen leaves the plasma too quickly. This can be caused by rapid decompression, changes in plasma pH (such as from lactic acid buildup, carbon dioxide retention), etc. You can ascend from deep dives with nitrogen saturated blood by doing so slowly and with decompression stops. One of the main reasons for using Nitrox and Heliox is to reduce the percentage of Nitrogen and thus reduce or eliminate the problem of nitrogen narcosis (which occurs, for most divers, around 100ft depth and worsens with increased depth).

........ continued in next post...

MyCre8n=Evlshn

--janq writes, "Turbo's are the most efficient means of gaining real power and torque from an engine. There are zero losses due to using spent exhaust gasses."

BZzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZ! Wrong again!
your "zero" losses would seem to make an intercooler a completely unnecessary load of plumming...oh, and there is NO loss due to having to use exhaust gas pressures to drive it?? Wrong. We all know that you lose some in gaining a lot. Enough engine officionados here, I don't need to explain this one. Even when you're at speed, a ram air intake has the drawback of added weight and wind resistance...there is no "zero losses"...but that's a hell of a lot more "efficient" method of boost.
I guess you should tell all the top fuel rail and funny car teams (running superchargers and ram intakes) that they don't know what they are doing...they really should bolt on some turbos.


As for the original point of this thread, nitrous...yes, it is a very inexpensive and reliable way to get a whole pile of extra horsepower! Nitrous, whether you like the street tuning scene or not, is a very effective modification for increased power.

--janq writes," NOS does not 'spray' out as a "liquid"..."it changes phases within the lines"
Ummm, wrong. In wet shot systems (which apply to the fuel injected cars, like the STi), the injectors spray LIQUID nitrous with fuel and it is the phase change to gas at that point which contributes greatly to it's effectiveness in cooling the mixture. The lines pressurize and then carry liquid nitrous.

reference: "It does this inside the inlet tract, as it "boils" from liquid into gas as it emerges from the injection point." from www.nitrous.info (plus there are plenty here who can tell you that in these forums)

also, --janq writes, "during the conversion from a liquid to gas heat is drawn from the ambient air near the tank and lines causing an extreme temperature drop in the N02 itself. This results in the NO2 hitting the intake at very cold (below freezing!) temperatures, and well know how much internal combustion engines & mass air sensors love cold air. No of course the resulting NO2 gas warms up a bit when..."

Though attempting to fairly-well describe the thermodynamics of gas expansion...it is absolutely NOT the heat being drawn from the ambient air causing temperature drop. The phase change causes the temperature drop and the heat drawn from surroundings REDUCES that temperature drop. But I think everyone here ignored you because we ALL know that when you draw heat IN you don't DROP temperature. The temperature drop of the surroundings is a side effect, not a cause. But you were close and actually trying to educate which is respectable.

Oh...and although you referred to nitrous oxide by its chemical symbol three times...you got it wrong all three times. NO2 is nitrogen dioxide. Nitrous oxide is N2O. N2O means two nitrogens and one oxygen. NO2 means one nitrogen and two oxygens. If you paid attention in that junior high science class you were ragging on IllNastyImpreza for skipping, you might have registered that. Pretty basic stuff that pretty much everyone on this forum knows.

So the moral of this story is that I am slamming you because you took an arrogant attitude toward someone who may not be as educated as you are and chastised and derided him as if he were the stupidest f*** on the planet. I think he was just on here trying to learn. I think you were at least aware enough to say you may have been a bit harsh but I think an all out apology is in order. You are certainly more educated than the vast majority here and you sling around a vocabulary (stoichiometry....nice) which certainly indicates you took chemistry in high school at least, not just in junior high. But I, for one, am really grateful to have the luxury of higher education and don't think myself bigger for having it given to me. You've no doubt been to college...and probably have a degree for it...but you must know that you learn a hell of a lot about cars and tuning from these forums. I know I'm always trying to learn more and it's often some of the least educated in here who ask the questions I want to know the answers to...and often the most knowledgeable never went to college when it comes to this stuff (cars and tuning).

So. I've over-ranted but I hope at least IllNastyImpreza can get a chuckle out of it. Just quit the hatin' ... we all spell like shiddinhere and we're ALL learning.

IllNastyImpreza

Thanks for gettin my backMycre8n=evlshn =). But seriously we are all here to LEARN right? If someone posts wrong information(and not just a biased OPINION) a correction is in order....not a full out **** asault, damn. Jang....you might have a little more technical knowledge then me in a couple fields....but I'll WOOP YOUR *** on the street, anytime. Im a driver...not a science major.

Janq

IllNastyImpreza,
I'm sure you would woop me in the street as I don't race in the streets. Now racing legally at a track, that my friend might be an entirely different story.

As for you MyCre8n=Evlshn, I'm on a roll as it seems I've picked up another new friend. I wonder where your blood pressure levels are registering. Take it easy friend, ease back on the thottle before you over rev and bend a valve.
So you disagree with me, cool. Further you believe I'm absolutely wrong on all points and talking out my ***. Thats fine too.
That is what I love about America, folks can have a diiference of opinion and the wrong can be right. Please feel free to mod the heck out of your car and hook up that NOS system to your 40% 'air' breathing engine. Knock yourself out and have loads of fun. I wish you the best in your efforts.

If you want to argue that ambient air is in fact 40% oxygen (it isn't!), or the principles of thermo-dynamics or the phyiscal properties of NOS or even that 'Goofy' is a dog, that's all good.
Again, knock yourself out. But facts are facts friend. Distort them all you want and introduce all manner of atypical variables and possibilities too. Have fun kid...

I'm going to take the high road and just respond with; "Uh huh, sure".

Not because you have 'shut me up'. No, not by a long shot my firey friend. In fact I disagree with you on nearly every one of your own points, except diction & sentence structure.
But, I don't have time or desire to build up a full and complete technical report on the components of ambient air, NOS, or the difficulty in reading and understanding 'Net shorthand as applied by IllNastyImpreza.

So in the name of diplomacy I officially concede and am going to move on with my 'Net life.

Thus I leave you Captain Save-A-Ho' , I mean MyCre8n=Evlshn, to rescue and support your fellow NOS buddies as they post wholly inaccurate (40% oxygenated air...lol) and mis-leading information (NOS and a 'good' ram-air intake) from those who just might have a clue and the nerve to doubt or even publicly disagree with their wack statements. Keep up the great work and best of luck to you in your future rescues. You have a fine career ahead of you.

BTW, since when did it become a bad thing to be educated?
On second thought, never you mind.

Warmest Regards,

Janq

"If you can't explain it simply, than you don't know it well enough." - Unknown

"Sarcasm is the intelligent person's response to irritating stupidity." - Unknown

MyCre8n=Evlshn

Janq, I too am finished bantering...except about car discussions...but you really may want to take a reading class. Everyone else in here can read my posts and clearly see that I corrected you by saying oxygen is 20% of air...not 40%.

thats twenty-percent (a two and a zero) not forty-percent (a four and a zero). Try reading again...and take it slowly, some of it was obviously hard on you to keep straight.

But in the interest of moving on...which, I must agree, you are absolutely right about...I concede that I may have spanked you too hard and will try to release my psychosis and get back to not ranting for pages ...especially not at you any more