"Fixing" STi understeer
05-01-2003, 12:52 PM
#1
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"Fixing" STi understeer
It would appear from car mag articles that the STi has an undesirable amount of understeer for whatever reason.
I assume that this can be "fixed" quite easily with a few suspension tweaks. For example, looking at the wheel wells, I see a gap just begging for 1" more of drop to lower the center of gravity and plant the car a little better.
Sticky 225/45 17" tires on 17x7.5 rims and a drop of about 1.5" (springs only) did wonders for my WRX's handling.
Before I made the changes, the car always felt like it was going to fly off the road (understeer). Now, I can't break the thing loose (and stay out of jail).
Experts: can the STi be "fixed" cheaply (without replacing the struts)?
Thoughts?
I assume that this can be "fixed" quite easily with a few suspension tweaks. For example, looking at the wheel wells, I see a gap just begging for 1" more of drop to lower the center of gravity and plant the car a little better.
Sticky 225/45 17" tires on 17x7.5 rims and a drop of about 1.5" (springs only) did wonders for my WRX's handling.
Before I made the changes, the car always felt like it was going to fly off the road (understeer). Now, I can't break the thing loose (and stay out of jail).
Experts: can the STi be "fixed" cheaply (without replacing the struts)?
Thoughts?
05-01-2003, 04:32 PM
#2
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The USDM STi suspension seems to be tuned a bit conservative from the factory (somewhere around -.3/-.4 F/R camber).
With a simple alignment and more agressive front camber (-1.0 +) alot of that understeer should easily be corrected.
Also Subaru seems to have switched the front anti-roll bar from the JDM 19mm to 20mm. Adding a 22mm ARB to the rear or simply going with a 19mm ARB up front should reduce understeer as well.
With a simple alignment and more agressive front camber (-1.0 +) alot of that understeer should easily be corrected.
Also Subaru seems to have switched the front anti-roll bar from the JDM 19mm to 20mm. Adding a 22mm ARB to the rear or simply going with a 19mm ARB up front should reduce understeer as well.
Last edited by INSTile; 05-01-2003 at 08:49 PM.
05-01-2003, 09:58 PM
#3
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The "understeer" complaints are overrated. Next to every understeer comment is another comment about how easy it is for the car to go sideways, so I dont understand what the fuss is about...
And yes, a simple alignment would correct alot of the problem by giving the front wheels a bit more grip and by evening out the camber in the rear will allow the rear in conjuction with the more negative front camber will make it less understeer prone.
And yes, a simple alignment would correct alot of the problem by giving the front wheels a bit more grip and by evening out the camber in the rear will allow the rear in conjuction with the more negative front camber will make it less understeer prone.
05-02-2003, 07:48 AM
#4
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Re: "Fixing" STi understeer
Originally posted by cmlnr
It would appear from car mag articles that the STi has an undesirable amount of understeer for whatever reason.
Thoughts?
It would appear from car mag articles that the STi has an undesirable amount of understeer for whatever reason.
Thoughts?
Last edited by dsmperformance; 05-02-2003 at 07:54 AM.
05-02-2003, 09:12 AM
#5
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Re: Re: "Fixing" STi understeer
Originally posted by dsmperformance
Another thing, none of the magazines are testing these rally machines in extreme variable conditions, such as a rally course. Granted, most won't see off-road, but a rally would be the ultimate test. Maybe do both?
Another thing, none of the magazines are testing these rally machines in extreme variable conditions, such as a rally course. Granted, most won't see off-road, but a rally would be the ultimate test. Maybe do both?
Has anyone or is anyone on this board planning to rally their Evo or STi? If so, what mods are going to be required?
05-02-2003, 09:48 AM
#6
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Re: Re: "Fixing" STi understeer
Opinionated journalists (who drive hundreds of cars) transferring driving impressions into words... Sounds like what they are paid to do and exactly the reason I read those magazines. Those opinions count for something, at least to me. Considering I have read 4 articles now that surface the exact same understeer complaint, wouldn't you tend to think there was a legitimate issue here?
So in other words, you've driven the cars (or at least the US STi) and have confirmed that the understeer complaints are exaggerated based on your experience driving hundreds of cars and all the journalists are just blathering about nothing?
Maybe I'm over reacting here, but opinionated comments like yours which don't even address the question in a factual way, whether intended or not, don't seem constructive to me, especially when the question is so simple.
"The problem is, you (and others)... [oblique (and probably unintended) insult]"
No, the problem is that there is an obvious pattern and trend in the comments about the car. Those don't come from no where.
I just asked if there was a cheap fix...
So in other words, you've driven the cars (or at least the US STi) and have confirmed that the understeer complaints are exaggerated based on your experience driving hundreds of cars and all the journalists are just blathering about nothing?
Maybe I'm over reacting here, but opinionated comments like yours which don't even address the question in a factual way, whether intended or not, don't seem constructive to me, especially when the question is so simple.
"The problem is, you (and others)... [oblique (and probably unintended) insult]"
No, the problem is that there is an obvious pattern and trend in the comments about the car. Those don't come from no where.
I just asked if there was a cheap fix...
Originally posted by dsmperformance
As mentioned above, understeer complaints are overrated. The other problem is, you(and others) are taking magazine opinions way too serious. Its only a magazine; opinionated journalists transfering driving impressions into words. Another thing, none of the magazines are testing these rally machines in extreme variable conditions, such as a rally course. Granted, most won't see off-road, but a rally would be the ultimate test. Maybe do both?
As mentioned above, understeer complaints are overrated. The other problem is, you(and others) are taking magazine opinions way too serious. Its only a magazine; opinionated journalists transfering driving impressions into words. Another thing, none of the magazines are testing these rally machines in extreme variable conditions, such as a rally course. Granted, most won't see off-road, but a rally would be the ultimate test. Maybe do both?
Last edited by cmlnr; 05-02-2003 at 09:55 AM.
05-02-2003, 09:52 AM
#7
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Thank you kindly for the expert, concise, precise and reassuring advice. Just what I was looking for.
Originally posted by INSTile
The USDM STi suspension seems to be tuned a bit conservative from the factory (somewhere around -.3/-.4 F/R camber).
With a simple alignment and more agressive front camber (-1.0 +) alot of that understeer should easily be corrected.
Also Subaru seems to have switched the front anti-roll bar from the JDM 19mm to 20mm. Adding a 22mm ARB to the rear or simply going with a 19mm ARB up front should reduce understeer as well.
The USDM STi suspension seems to be tuned a bit conservative from the factory (somewhere around -.3/-.4 F/R camber).
With a simple alignment and more agressive front camber (-1.0 +) alot of that understeer should easily be corrected.
Also Subaru seems to have switched the front anti-roll bar from the JDM 19mm to 20mm. Adding a 22mm ARB to the rear or simply going with a 19mm ARB up front should reduce understeer as well.
05-02-2003, 03:44 PM
#8
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Re: Re: Re: "Fixing" STi understeer
Originally posted by cmlnr
Opinionated journalists (who drive hundreds of cars) transferring driving impressions into words... Sounds like what they are paid to do and exactly the reason I read those magazines. Those opinions count for something, at least to me. Considering I have read 4 articles now that surface the exact same understeer complaint, wouldn't you tend to think there was a legitimate issue here?
So in other words, you've driven the cars (or at least the US STi) and have confirmed that the understeer complaints are exaggerated based on your experience driving hundreds of cars and all the journalists are just blathering about nothing?
Maybe I'm over reacting here, but opinionated comments like yours which don't even address the question in a factual way, whether intended or not, don't seem constructive to me, especially when the question is so simple.
"The problem is, you (and others)... [oblique (and probably unintended) insult]"
No, the problem is that there is an obvious pattern and trend in the comments about the car. Those don't come from no where.
I just asked if there was a cheap fix...
Opinionated journalists (who drive hundreds of cars) transferring driving impressions into words... Sounds like what they are paid to do and exactly the reason I read those magazines. Those opinions count for something, at least to me. Considering I have read 4 articles now that surface the exact same understeer complaint, wouldn't you tend to think there was a legitimate issue here?
So in other words, you've driven the cars (or at least the US STi) and have confirmed that the understeer complaints are exaggerated based on your experience driving hundreds of cars and all the journalists are just blathering about nothing?
Maybe I'm over reacting here, but opinionated comments like yours which don't even address the question in a factual way, whether intended or not, don't seem constructive to me, especially when the question is so simple.
"The problem is, you (and others)... [oblique (and probably unintended) insult]"
No, the problem is that there is an obvious pattern and trend in the comments about the car. Those don't come from no where.
I just asked if there was a cheap fix...
05-03-2003, 12:17 AM
#9
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cmlnr: As you know, none of these reviewers are actually TRYING to fix that understeer problem through simple solutions, so we dont know yet how easy it will be to fix. Its not like they are re-aligning the cars to non-stock specs, for that we need to wait for actual owners and club members to start with modifications and run on the track for us to get any definitive ideas on what to do. If thats an issue with you in terms of waiting, then feel free to buy an EVO.
But like I said, an alignment alone may do wonders, at least from my personal experience in autocrossing and driving my Impreza at the limit...
But like I said, an alignment alone may do wonders, at least from my personal experience in autocrossing and driving my Impreza at the limit...
11-05-2003, 10:33 AM
#10
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Rear camber
Ok so im going with 1.0 to 1.2 up front with 0 toe.
Now about the rear. Also 0 toe, but what about the camber? Should it be close but not quite as much like .8
Now about the rear. Also 0 toe, but what about the camber? Should it be close but not quite as much like .8
11-05-2003, 01:15 PM
#11
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Didn't I read somewhere in an article that the easiest way to fix the understeer is to lean into the turn a little more. The car does begin to understeer when turning sharply, but as soon as that starts to happen, lean more into the turn and the problem fixes itself. It works for me.
11-05-2003, 07:45 PM
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If you want an honest opinion, i can tell you that the understeer comments usually go "the car understeers a little to early." thats not to say that its a problem, as a matter of fact i have both an 04' STi and an 02' WRX wagon running with heavy P1's on 225/45/17 S0-3's, and the understeering is more pronounced in the wrx than in the STi. If the STi has an understeering problem, then i suppose they should say the WRX is basically a sled with no reins.
As to fixing the understeer problem, i lift off the gas an it oversteers, as a matter of fact, i have to compensate by lightening steering input as i'm shifting because disengaging the engine from the tranny produces that oversteer, which is pretty scary to me.
So basically, at least to me, there is no understeer problem, not compared to the WRX, but perhaps in comparison to the EVO the understeer does come a bit early. Don't forget that most of these journalists have tested and driven the EVO before also, so there is a frame of reference and comparisons, even not direct ones, will come about.
As to fixing the understeer problem, i lift off the gas an it oversteers, as a matter of fact, i have to compensate by lightening steering input as i'm shifting because disengaging the engine from the tranny produces that oversteer, which is pretty scary to me.
So basically, at least to me, there is no understeer problem, not compared to the WRX, but perhaps in comparison to the EVO the understeer does come a bit early. Don't forget that most of these journalists have tested and driven the EVO before also, so there is a frame of reference and comparisons, even not direct ones, will come about.
11-06-2003, 09:50 AM
#13
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Er ah!
The STi owners manual has the camber at:
-0.30 front
-1.40 rear
People keep saying its .4 rear. I do believe the STi needs more camber in the front. Yes my over doing it with drifting turns has balded the sides of my tires, BUT the insides look brand new. I can help but believe that -1.0-1.5 up front wouldnt help a little with contact patch in turns.
I guess i drive about as aggressively as any one on the planet. 5400 miles and tires are just about gone.
Please advise that if the rear is -1.4 then should that be changed.
-0.30 front
-1.40 rear
People keep saying its .4 rear. I do believe the STi needs more camber in the front. Yes my over doing it with drifting turns has balded the sides of my tires, BUT the insides look brand new. I can help but believe that -1.0-1.5 up front wouldnt help a little with contact patch in turns.
I guess i drive about as aggressively as any one on the planet. 5400 miles and tires are just about gone.
Please advise that if the rear is -1.4 then should that be changed.
11-06-2003, 01:32 PM
#14
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i have the front at -1 now.. which is the max it can go with factory setup
felt instantly sharper.
felt instantly sharper.
11-06-2003, 03:31 PM
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Interesting. I am no Mario Andretti so my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (also have no track time) but: I find that the car is quite nicely balanced. My VR6 definitely understeers(FWD), to the point that adjusting weight transfer helps only marginally.
What’s interesting is that nobody is talking about the Variable Center dif control? I have found it enormously effective. In fact it rained the other night and I couldn’t believe how much difference there was in steering characteristics between settings.
Normally when I am just driving in “auto” mode I do find the car a tad reluctant to initiate a turn however a good THUMP on the throttle seems to take care of that nicely. I frequently slide the car around corners and then lock right back up after correcting nose(goose bumps thinking about it). I do have problem slipping the back way out of line if I’m too aggressive during turns. Understeer and oversteer, moments apart(what a car).
Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I’m the first to admit that I only know a fraction about the technical aspects of this car as the rest of you. I drive completely by “the seat of my pants”, but I am trying to learn. What I do know is this:
I drove that STI in the sierra mountains on roads that have killed many a would be Sunday driver, almost as fast as my motorcycle. All I can say is “THAT CAR F___’N ROCKS!!!!!!!!”. If there are adjustments that can be made to make it better handling than terrific. If that car gets any easier to drive, I might have to quit my job and join WRC.
What’s interesting is that nobody is talking about the Variable Center dif control? I have found it enormously effective. In fact it rained the other night and I couldn’t believe how much difference there was in steering characteristics between settings.
Normally when I am just driving in “auto” mode I do find the car a tad reluctant to initiate a turn however a good THUMP on the throttle seems to take care of that nicely. I frequently slide the car around corners and then lock right back up after correcting nose(goose bumps thinking about it). I do have problem slipping the back way out of line if I’m too aggressive during turns. Understeer and oversteer, moments apart(what a car).
Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I’m the first to admit that I only know a fraction about the technical aspects of this car as the rest of you. I drive completely by “the seat of my pants”, but I am trying to learn. What I do know is this:
I drove that STI in the sierra mountains on roads that have killed many a would be Sunday driver, almost as fast as my motorcycle. All I can say is “THAT CAR F___’N ROCKS!!!!!!!!”. If there are adjustments that can be made to make it better handling than terrific. If that car gets any easier to drive, I might have to quit my job and join WRC.