2.5 Overheating/Cracked Cylinder
01-07-2003, 07:13 AM
#1
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2.5 Overheating/Cracked Cylinder
I have a Legacy 2.5 GT MY97, 90K miles, fully maintained. Had a mysterious overheating problem which has now been traced to a cracked cylinder by the local dealer.
I have heard the following:
- The failure is due to insufficient coolant flow around the cylinder.
- The failure can occur without the temp gauge indicating the problem.
- This is not a rare occurrence.
My local dealer is indicating that since the drivetrain is out of the 60K warranty, Subaru is unlikely to provide any support.
Bottom line is the dealer wants $4,000 to repair. He was also kind enough to offer me $1,500 in trade for my car!
Does anyone out there have any experience or advice on this???
Help!!!
Mark
I have heard the following:
- The failure is due to insufficient coolant flow around the cylinder.
- The failure can occur without the temp gauge indicating the problem.
- This is not a rare occurrence.
My local dealer is indicating that since the drivetrain is out of the 60K warranty, Subaru is unlikely to provide any support.
Bottom line is the dealer wants $4,000 to repair. He was also kind enough to offer me $1,500 in trade for my car!
Does anyone out there have any experience or advice on this???
Help!!!
Mark
01-07-2003, 08:49 AM
#2
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Posts: n/a
From my experience, dealers are full of crap for the most part. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but I would get a second opinion first. I haven't heard of this problem specifically, nor have I experienced it. However, I do not have a legacy and my 2.5 is only 2.5 years old (also a phase II, I think yours would be a phase I). I'm definitely interested if this is a regular problem though.
01-07-2003, 11:33 AM
#3
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find out what he did to determine a cracked cylinder (compression test, remove the engine, ect.). if it is just his educated guess, suggest the possibility of the head gaskets blown. i have seen a lot of ej25 dohc w/ blown head gaskets, which has also lead to warped heads. which means plaining the heads. those engines generally have very good coolant flow, as they are surrounded by a water jacket. the only thing to cause bad coolant on that engine would be themostat, plugged radiator (seen that about 8 times) or a bad water pump. you might want to get a 2nd opinion, or just press him as to why he thinks cracked cyl. i am not saying your dealer is totally wrong, just sharing my thoughts.
-PJ
-PJ
01-08-2003, 09:22 AM
#5
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i have seen a lot of ej25 dohc w/ blown head gaskets
Take it for a second opinion from an unbiased shop.
If you have to get a new engine, one option to think about is a WRX engine swap.
//Mark
01-15-2003, 04:58 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1
I experienced the same problem on a my '97 Legacy 2.5 at about 88,000 miles. It began as mysterious overheating problem one day, suddenly while chasing an RX-7. Anyway, I immediately pulled over, allowed the car to cool down a bit, filled the radiator and drove the car several weeks over several hundred miles before the problem reappeared. I actually dismissed it as just low coolant level, and figured everything was O.K. Not so; the problem appeared again and with much more regularity later. So I did all the easy checks: antifreeze concetration, thermostat, radiator for internal/external blockage. Everything was O.K. Checking a little deeper, I did a cooling system pressure test, which was not really conclusive, so I did a leak- down test. I found low cylinder pressure in two cylinders in opposite banks of the engine. The worse of the two, would actually cause the water level in the radiator to rise and over flow. I immediately surmised, failed head gasket or cracked head.
This is what I think happened, although I'm not actually sure. The original problem was due to a failed head gasked, which was probably caused by severely over-revving the engine. I distictly remember two occasions earlier in the car's history, over-revving the engine by inadvertently shifting from 3rd. to 2nd. gear (3rd.-4th. shift intended). What further leads to that suspicion is that, the other cylinder on the other side of the engine that had low compression, had low compression because of a bent valve (sign of over-rev) and nothing else wrong.
The problem is that after repeated over heating without correcting the problem, eventually lead to warping and cracing the "bad head", which also lead to a damaged deck surface and glazed cyl. bore for the corresponding cylinder. So I fixed it the following way: New Subaru assembled short block and two reman. cyl. head and engine gasket set. At the same time the engine was out I replaced the clutch parts. Total parts were about $2300 to $2400. I saved on the labor because I did the work myself, but I agree with the $4000 to $5000 figure to pay someone else to do the job.
MORAL TO THE STORY! If you ever encounter this problem in your Subaru, have it fixed immediately, so that a head or gasket don't end up being an entire engine job. I hope that helps
Wes
This is what I think happened, although I'm not actually sure. The original problem was due to a failed head gasked, which was probably caused by severely over-revving the engine. I distictly remember two occasions earlier in the car's history, over-revving the engine by inadvertently shifting from 3rd. to 2nd. gear (3rd.-4th. shift intended). What further leads to that suspicion is that, the other cylinder on the other side of the engine that had low compression, had low compression because of a bent valve (sign of over-rev) and nothing else wrong.
The problem is that after repeated over heating without correcting the problem, eventually lead to warping and cracing the "bad head", which also lead to a damaged deck surface and glazed cyl. bore for the corresponding cylinder. So I fixed it the following way: New Subaru assembled short block and two reman. cyl. head and engine gasket set. At the same time the engine was out I replaced the clutch parts. Total parts were about $2300 to $2400. I saved on the labor because I did the work myself, but I agree with the $4000 to $5000 figure to pay someone else to do the job.
MORAL TO THE STORY! If you ever encounter this problem in your Subaru, have it fixed immediately, so that a head or gasket don't end up being an entire engine job. I hope that helps
Wes
01-16-2003, 06:58 AM
#7
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Wesley -
My scenario was very similar to yours, the car was "well exercised" on occasion, but not over-revved. I believe the failure mode and sequence (leaking head gasket followed by cracked cylinder) was virtually identical, but limited to one cylinder.
The crack in the cylinder was small, less than an inch long, perpendicular to the direction of piston travel and flush with the cylinder wall, so there were no edges to catch the rings. My understanding is that the 2.5 is very efficient at burning glycol, so no loss of power or trail of white exhaust smoke was apparent. I was not burning much glycol at all, so diagnosing the problem was even more difficult.
The "spontaneous overheating" occurs when the engine load and heat becomes sufficient to "burp" the exhaust back into the cooling jacket, past the thermostat (causing the sudden temperature spike) and finally exiting into the overflow. When you shut down the engine in response to the sudden temperature spike the gauge quickly returns to normal, or even colder than normal, and the cooling fan fails to actuate because of the transient nature of the heated exhaust gas.
Since I initiated this post, I would like to bring everyone up to date on how the issue was resolved:
I initially worked through the service manager at the dealership, who contacted Subaru regionally. Their response was to cover 10% of parts and labor.
Next I contacted Subaru national customer service, where they were polite enough to listen to my problem, open a "case file" and tell me that it was really too bad, the drive train was out of warranty and they weren't going to stand behind their product.
After resigning myself to paying the $4K, I took the opportunity to visit the owner of the dealership. I explained the sequence of events and before I could finish, she indicated that the failure shouldn't have happened, and that she would personally stand behind the product. The result was that I will be paying slightly less than $2K to have the motor rebuilt with a new short block, heads, etc. Not to plug a dealership on this site, but in this age of lack of accountability, Van Bortel Subaru in Victor NY desrves recognition for standing behind their product.
I pick up the car tomorrow and I'll keep everyone posted on the final outcome.
Mark
My scenario was very similar to yours, the car was "well exercised" on occasion, but not over-revved. I believe the failure mode and sequence (leaking head gasket followed by cracked cylinder) was virtually identical, but limited to one cylinder.
The crack in the cylinder was small, less than an inch long, perpendicular to the direction of piston travel and flush with the cylinder wall, so there were no edges to catch the rings. My understanding is that the 2.5 is very efficient at burning glycol, so no loss of power or trail of white exhaust smoke was apparent. I was not burning much glycol at all, so diagnosing the problem was even more difficult.
The "spontaneous overheating" occurs when the engine load and heat becomes sufficient to "burp" the exhaust back into the cooling jacket, past the thermostat (causing the sudden temperature spike) and finally exiting into the overflow. When you shut down the engine in response to the sudden temperature spike the gauge quickly returns to normal, or even colder than normal, and the cooling fan fails to actuate because of the transient nature of the heated exhaust gas.
Since I initiated this post, I would like to bring everyone up to date on how the issue was resolved:
I initially worked through the service manager at the dealership, who contacted Subaru regionally. Their response was to cover 10% of parts and labor.
Next I contacted Subaru national customer service, where they were polite enough to listen to my problem, open a "case file" and tell me that it was really too bad, the drive train was out of warranty and they weren't going to stand behind their product.
After resigning myself to paying the $4K, I took the opportunity to visit the owner of the dealership. I explained the sequence of events and before I could finish, she indicated that the failure shouldn't have happened, and that she would personally stand behind the product. The result was that I will be paying slightly less than $2K to have the motor rebuilt with a new short block, heads, etc. Not to plug a dealership on this site, but in this age of lack of accountability, Van Bortel Subaru in Victor NY desrves recognition for standing behind their product.
I pick up the car tomorrow and I'll keep everyone posted on the final outcome.
Mark
01-16-2003, 01:09 PM
#8
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I have M.Y. 1997 Legacy Outback with the EJ25 motor and same happened to me at 78,000. I started complaing to dealer at 36K about coolant leaks; 50K on oil leaks; and at 78K blown heads. In the past, the dealer only chased the symptoms and replaced oil seals and water pump. (what dealer doesn't want see and what you can't see wont hurt SOA warranty funds-Thank God health care isn't run by SOA and General Motors)
With overheating problems at 78K, I had coolant system pressure tested to confirm overcharging of coolant system. (Hind sight- I should have had this performed under warranty at 59,998 miles) I did a web search on "subaru-head-gasket" and found this i-club and a member who started a long thread about this very subject.
I did same as you contacted SOA filed case number went to dealer armed with case # and printed out of the thread listing case after case of know trouble with EJ25 motors and defective gaskets oil seals, head gaskets blown, and metalurgy problems of 2.5 motor with known piston problems.(I even had one individual (Mr. X of Lafayette, Indinana) tell me that SOA knew this problem existed and contracted with a "major manufacture" of gaskets to solve the Subaru EJ25 headgasket problem)
To my amazement without a fight from SOA but some grumbling from my dealer, SOA participated in a warranty rate repair and my dealer performing the warranty work replaced shortblock with newest version that resolves all past plagues, and parts at a 60/40 cost reponsibility split at SOA warranty rates from dealer. Only out of scope work was heads refurbished with new valve seals, cuts, and reconditioned values. (if heads were warped warranty rates would have applied)
All said and done, my pockets are lighter $2,200. So far no problems with the Subaru and I would even go so far as to say that the new generation short block is quieter than the first generation motor.
I did have to replace the O2 sensors after the work was performed at my expense due to OBDII system didn't note an alarm even though the sensors did send a "lean" signal to the OBDII.(back to square one with the dealer, what they can't identify won't hurt them) I repaired with a 22mm wrench and new O2 sensors 200 bucks.
I hope more Subaru owners are armed with this knowlegde of Subaru of America's attempt to sweep the EJ25 head gasket problem under the carpet.
Had I known what I know now, I would have sold the Subaru at the first sign of trouble. I have been under false pretense that most Subarus are trouble free like all Hondas.
Moral of the story, If buying a Subaru, stay away from a Subaru EJ25 motor.
Note:
Take a look at the Local Newspaper's Satuday want ads in your hometown to see how many 96-97-98 MY Subarus with 60 to 80K miles are for sale.
With overheating problems at 78K, I had coolant system pressure tested to confirm overcharging of coolant system. (Hind sight- I should have had this performed under warranty at 59,998 miles) I did a web search on "subaru-head-gasket" and found this i-club and a member who started a long thread about this very subject.
I did same as you contacted SOA filed case number went to dealer armed with case # and printed out of the thread listing case after case of know trouble with EJ25 motors and defective gaskets oil seals, head gaskets blown, and metalurgy problems of 2.5 motor with known piston problems.(I even had one individual (Mr. X of Lafayette, Indinana) tell me that SOA knew this problem existed and contracted with a "major manufacture" of gaskets to solve the Subaru EJ25 headgasket problem)
To my amazement without a fight from SOA but some grumbling from my dealer, SOA participated in a warranty rate repair and my dealer performing the warranty work replaced shortblock with newest version that resolves all past plagues, and parts at a 60/40 cost reponsibility split at SOA warranty rates from dealer. Only out of scope work was heads refurbished with new valve seals, cuts, and reconditioned values. (if heads were warped warranty rates would have applied)
All said and done, my pockets are lighter $2,200. So far no problems with the Subaru and I would even go so far as to say that the new generation short block is quieter than the first generation motor.
I did have to replace the O2 sensors after the work was performed at my expense due to OBDII system didn't note an alarm even though the sensors did send a "lean" signal to the OBDII.(back to square one with the dealer, what they can't identify won't hurt them) I repaired with a 22mm wrench and new O2 sensors 200 bucks.
I hope more Subaru owners are armed with this knowlegde of Subaru of America's attempt to sweep the EJ25 head gasket problem under the carpet.
Had I known what I know now, I would have sold the Subaru at the first sign of trouble. I have been under false pretense that most Subarus are trouble free like all Hondas.
Moral of the story, If buying a Subaru, stay away from a Subaru EJ25 motor.
Note:
Take a look at the Local Newspaper's Satuday want ads in your hometown to see how many 96-97-98 MY Subarus with 60 to 80K miles are for sale.
02-27-2003, 10:41 PM
#9
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Should I buy a 98 Outback 2.5L AT?
I'm looking at a 1998 Automatic Subaru 30th limited edition Outback, has 79,000 miles on it. CARFAX and the local place where it's been serviced since day 1 say it's clean. Is this a bomb waiting to go off?? Does anyone have one of these that HASN'T had this overheating problem? I dont want to sink 10K into something that will blow a head gasket and cost me $1500 more in a year! But I really like the car, so if it's safe, I'll buy it. help!
02-28-2003, 06:48 AM
#10
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it seems like cars different. i mean i have seen a fair share of ej25s with blown head gaskets, but when compared to # number of ej25s i have worked on, or seen in the shop its nothing. they are very strong engine. but i feel their weak link is the alu. block and head combo. when you do start to overheat it doesn't take as much to warp the heads. thats just opinion though.
i would say get the car. they really are great. BUT! do you homework on the car first and take it to a mechanic that knows subarus. find out if they timing belt has been replaced, and ask him to look for oil leaks around the oil pump, and OHC seals. these are the most common problems. basically the seals start to leak, so you have to replace the belt and seals together b/c it would be a waste of time not to. if an auto, drive around in a couple circles at full lock w/ a little throttle. if you feel a weird grinding noise/hitching feeling, that maybe the AWD solenoid.
well those are just a couple common complaints. good luck with the car!
-PJ
i would say get the car. they really are great. BUT! do you homework on the car first and take it to a mechanic that knows subarus. find out if they timing belt has been replaced, and ask him to look for oil leaks around the oil pump, and OHC seals. these are the most common problems. basically the seals start to leak, so you have to replace the belt and seals together b/c it would be a waste of time not to. if an auto, drive around in a couple circles at full lock w/ a little throttle. if you feel a weird grinding noise/hitching feeling, that maybe the AWD solenoid.
well those are just a couple common complaints. good luck with the car!
-PJ
02-28-2003, 07:47 AM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 100
Car Info: 98 GT Wagon
Thought I would chime in here. My 98 GT Wagon has 112K-miles on her with no sign of the HeadGasket problem(knocks on wood!) I would also note that this cars service schedule lists the Timing Belt to be done at 105K-miles, so the OB you're considering isn't yet due. But, if there are any leaks inside the belt covers all bets are off, and best to replace the belt if contaminated.
Glenn O
Glenn O
02-28-2003, 08:03 AM
#12
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Posts: n/a
Good info
Hey, thanks to both of you, good information. This IS an automatic, and the timing belt was replaced at 58,000 miles because it was registered as a commercial vehicle and the owner was really on top of things- all oil checks early, all minor and major services were early or on time. Then he traded it into at the dealer where he bought it, and the guy I'm thinking of buying from drove it for 20,000 and bought himself a new truck. I'll definitely have the vehicle checked out closely. Look for oil leaks around the oil pump and OHC seals? Or is OHC just for manual? Thanks, all.
02-28-2003, 11:20 AM
#13
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Yeah I have ~150k on my 2.5 and I beat this thing like a red headed stepchild(well, only at auto-x) no probs yet!
02-28-2003, 01:19 PM
#14
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OHC- overhead cam seals
found on all, either sohc or dohc.
2.5 are dohc, thus having 4 ohc seals
true, timing belts on the car is scheduled until 100k, but if the seals are leaking you need to them all together. plus i would rather replace the t/b before then just to be sure i didbn't have pistons meeting valves....
-PJ
found on all, either sohc or dohc.
2.5 are dohc, thus having 4 ohc seals
true, timing belts on the car is scheduled until 100k, but if the seals are leaking you need to them all together. plus i would rather replace the t/b before then just to be sure i didbn't have pistons meeting valves....
-PJ
03-30-2004, 04:33 PM
#15
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97 2.5GT ej25 dohc w/ Blown head gasket at 87K mil
I bought a 1997 Legacy GT with the 2.5 DOHC engine about six months ago, everything seemed great. Three months ago I noticed smoke when I stopped. So I took it to the dealership and they replaced the crank seal, oil pump oring, waterpump, thermastat, AC belt, timing belt , tensioner, and some hoses. Came to $850. I was happy my car was back, then about a month ago I noticed a temp spike, I shut the car off for a little while and everything went back to normal till last friday when I noticed the temp rising again. I towed the car to the dealership not wanting to risk driving it again with what I thought was a fluky thermastat. The dealership told me it was a BLOWN HEAD GASKET! I almost died. The car only has 87,000 miles and runs great. I came online and noticed all these similar cases and want to know how to get the dealership or SOA to help out with these costs if not cover them considering I just bought this vehicle based on subaru's reputation! I'm going to contact SOA tommorow and left a message with the service manager of the dealership I had done my prior work with and who diagnosed the problem as a blown head gasket. The service rep said it would be more than $2000 which I just don't have! I am driving a rent-a-car and am very desperate! Please advice. Thank you