Auto X was great again!
07-20-2005, 08:57 PM
#76
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 18
Lets break this down a little. First of all.....the usage of "dude" was very generic as is Dear Sir. Relax a little there. Gender has nothing to do with this whole issue.
If anyone thought that I was attacking anyone personally then well...my appologies....no sarcasm there. There were no direct reference to anyone per se. The terminology and reference to the word of "you" was supposed to be generally speaking. Not to be directed to anyone. Before you attack me back, why dont you flip this around and look at it from another persons point of view as a person that is trying something for the first time, but only got criticisms versus anything constructive? I was bringing up a point from another stand point. I acknowledged that there were issues, mentioned that we felt bad that we probably screwed up some peoples times and tallys, I mentioned that we probably needed help, I mentioned that we needed the expertise of the more experienced people there, I was not directing any direct issues to any one person or saying that a persons point of view and comments were unwarranted. Once again, as you said, I dont know "you" (used figuratively for the record) and in turn, you dont really know the real me as well. I can respect your opinions and thoughts, but mind you, I am being careful not to come across nor intend to directly insult anyone, male OR female for that matter. That has NOTHING to do with this whole topic. Leave that part out of this. This is the 21st century, gender equality. They (women) can hold their own just fine without us.
I used the original quote because I agree that there were issues and I did see people not paying attention. However, to generalize everything and to sum it all up as "the Noobs were screwing things up (generalization...not a direct quote)" was rather harsh in my opinion. To acknowledge that there were issues, and perhaps mentioning some good points would have been nice. Do you only criticize people versus mentioning some good things then some things to improve on? Most were trying to do their best with little knowledge and actual experience...would be nice if someone would mention that somewhere. Simple as that.
Did any of the new guys run in the earlier heat? Of course not. Most were told or informed that we wont be able to run until the 3rd heat. Yes we walked the course. And we asked questions about where to go. Not how to make calls and judgements on DNF's and such. That I think needs to be learned by first hand experience.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "you" (the SCCA body) needing newbies. First of all....lets get real. Everybody needs somebody, in terms of help, assistance and most important of all...prolongment of an ideal, sport, club, group, you name it. We all need each other. What I wsa refering to was you need the new people to keep the sport going. People get older, people get busier with other priorities in life that take them away, people move, things just happen. Every sport, club, etc...need the new people to help keep the current movement moving to better itself and to grow. If you belittle and degrade all the new people saying that you dont need them....then eventually your group will disolve. Yes I know that SCCA has been around for a very long time. I had to search to see what was needed and what were the requirements. That is how I knew when we could run, what we needed, how much to pay and such. By the way, I never directly insulted anyone...so by someone saying that I should not attack another member...and then at same time insulting my intelligence by saying
"If you were smart, then maybe looking up what you needed to do (SUCH AS A SEARCH) before actually going down there"
And yelling at the same time...well, thats your call. Did I do anything to you directly??? Sorry if you feel that way as such as to warrant calling me "stupid." I did search on what was needed...see above. And the entire point of this conversation is that of the newbies efforts or lack of this past SCCA event. It had to do with the calling of the cones and DNF's. The information online does explain some things...but there were other questions that could not be asked until you actually saw it. It would be too late to make a judgement call if nobody was there to assist you watching the same thing happen.
We would ask questions for help and such, but it is a little hard to ask for help if we are stationed alone. Perhaps we could call into central for assistance, but there are some things that just needed to be seen to make the call. A newbie would not be able to fully describe what happened in a way that central could make a call on in such a short time.
Now when you refer to as the newbies not doing their job thus jepordizing someones life........huh??? I was refering to the entire passage as acknowledgements in screw ups on calls. Nothing to do with endagering someone's life. Now that can be another topic...but for conversations sake, this was entirely geared towards the errors and help needed in calls. Hmmm in regards to people not reseting the cones and such, well, I missed one so I can't really talk about that one. Though, another person at certain posts would be helpful at times. If a person was being negligent in not watching the course after being warned, then yes, that is a safety issue and I wouldn't argue the case.
But before this entire thing escalates into a mountain out of a mole hill.....the entire point was:
Yes there were newbies (a lot of them) on the course this past SCCA event. There will be errors made and really I am sure that "we" are sorry for inadvertantly screwing some people up. We will improve I am sure over some time. However, it would be nice to the new people as well, that someone would say something constructive and nice versus the constant bashing. Help was needed but to an extent it could not be given because there were too many new people. In some areas there were others just hanging around that could have possibly helped to some extent if they spotted an error. Everyone just complains about the issues...and sometimes it gets tiresome. A little pat on the back despite the problems would be a nice encouragement to those that tried. I just see tons of complaining about the new guys, and there were some irresposible people there...but there were also others that were trying. Best not to stereotype the entire group.
There is no direct attacking of anyone in any of these posts. Most were thoughts and opinions about the negativity expressed of having the new people out this past event. If you feel that in my expressing my opinion stepped on your feet, then I am sorry that you took it so, it was not directly aimed nor intended for anyone directly. Is this disclaimer clear enough such that nobody gets insulted or feels that "the fur has to fly" to settle this?? Hope so.
If anyone thought that I was attacking anyone personally then well...my appologies....no sarcasm there. There were no direct reference to anyone per se. The terminology and reference to the word of "you" was supposed to be generally speaking. Not to be directed to anyone. Before you attack me back, why dont you flip this around and look at it from another persons point of view as a person that is trying something for the first time, but only got criticisms versus anything constructive? I was bringing up a point from another stand point. I acknowledged that there were issues, mentioned that we felt bad that we probably screwed up some peoples times and tallys, I mentioned that we probably needed help, I mentioned that we needed the expertise of the more experienced people there, I was not directing any direct issues to any one person or saying that a persons point of view and comments were unwarranted. Once again, as you said, I dont know "you" (used figuratively for the record) and in turn, you dont really know the real me as well. I can respect your opinions and thoughts, but mind you, I am being careful not to come across nor intend to directly insult anyone, male OR female for that matter. That has NOTHING to do with this whole topic. Leave that part out of this. This is the 21st century, gender equality. They (women) can hold their own just fine without us.
I used the original quote because I agree that there were issues and I did see people not paying attention. However, to generalize everything and to sum it all up as "the Noobs were screwing things up (generalization...not a direct quote)" was rather harsh in my opinion. To acknowledge that there were issues, and perhaps mentioning some good points would have been nice. Do you only criticize people versus mentioning some good things then some things to improve on? Most were trying to do their best with little knowledge and actual experience...would be nice if someone would mention that somewhere. Simple as that.
Did any of the new guys run in the earlier heat? Of course not. Most were told or informed that we wont be able to run until the 3rd heat. Yes we walked the course. And we asked questions about where to go. Not how to make calls and judgements on DNF's and such. That I think needs to be learned by first hand experience.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "you" (the SCCA body) needing newbies. First of all....lets get real. Everybody needs somebody, in terms of help, assistance and most important of all...prolongment of an ideal, sport, club, group, you name it. We all need each other. What I wsa refering to was you need the new people to keep the sport going. People get older, people get busier with other priorities in life that take them away, people move, things just happen. Every sport, club, etc...need the new people to help keep the current movement moving to better itself and to grow. If you belittle and degrade all the new people saying that you dont need them....then eventually your group will disolve. Yes I know that SCCA has been around for a very long time. I had to search to see what was needed and what were the requirements. That is how I knew when we could run, what we needed, how much to pay and such. By the way, I never directly insulted anyone...so by someone saying that I should not attack another member...and then at same time insulting my intelligence by saying
"If you were smart, then maybe looking up what you needed to do (SUCH AS A SEARCH) before actually going down there"
And yelling at the same time...well, thats your call. Did I do anything to you directly??? Sorry if you feel that way as such as to warrant calling me "stupid." I did search on what was needed...see above. And the entire point of this conversation is that of the newbies efforts or lack of this past SCCA event. It had to do with the calling of the cones and DNF's. The information online does explain some things...but there were other questions that could not be asked until you actually saw it. It would be too late to make a judgement call if nobody was there to assist you watching the same thing happen.
We would ask questions for help and such, but it is a little hard to ask for help if we are stationed alone. Perhaps we could call into central for assistance, but there are some things that just needed to be seen to make the call. A newbie would not be able to fully describe what happened in a way that central could make a call on in such a short time.
Now when you refer to as the newbies not doing their job thus jepordizing someones life........huh??? I was refering to the entire passage as acknowledgements in screw ups on calls. Nothing to do with endagering someone's life. Now that can be another topic...but for conversations sake, this was entirely geared towards the errors and help needed in calls. Hmmm in regards to people not reseting the cones and such, well, I missed one so I can't really talk about that one. Though, another person at certain posts would be helpful at times. If a person was being negligent in not watching the course after being warned, then yes, that is a safety issue and I wouldn't argue the case.
But before this entire thing escalates into a mountain out of a mole hill.....the entire point was:
Yes there were newbies (a lot of them) on the course this past SCCA event. There will be errors made and really I am sure that "we" are sorry for inadvertantly screwing some people up. We will improve I am sure over some time. However, it would be nice to the new people as well, that someone would say something constructive and nice versus the constant bashing. Help was needed but to an extent it could not be given because there were too many new people. In some areas there were others just hanging around that could have possibly helped to some extent if they spotted an error. Everyone just complains about the issues...and sometimes it gets tiresome. A little pat on the back despite the problems would be a nice encouragement to those that tried. I just see tons of complaining about the new guys, and there were some irresposible people there...but there were also others that were trying. Best not to stereotype the entire group.
There is no direct attacking of anyone in any of these posts. Most were thoughts and opinions about the negativity expressed of having the new people out this past event. If you feel that in my expressing my opinion stepped on your feet, then I am sorry that you took it so, it was not directly aimed nor intended for anyone directly. Is this disclaimer clear enough such that nobody gets insulted or feels that "the fur has to fly" to settle this?? Hope so.
07-20-2005, 09:25 PM
#77
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mid-Atlantic somewhere
Posts: 820
Car Info: '97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
I'm with XSLR8SN on this one, I'm not sure what 808subaru and CallMeCrazy are getting so combative about. The burden is most certainly not on the "noobies" to figure out how to properly run an event - that burden rests solely on the shoulders of the organizers.
Based on all the events I've been to, the standard has always been that Novices run in the afternoon, so to ask whether any of them ran in the morning is kind of pointless. Would that have been a good thing (to spread the 17 Novices out)? Yes. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody had any reason to suspect there would so many Novices, so nobody had any reason to ask some of them to run in the morning.
Lives in danger? If there any "lives in danger" at an auto-x then there's something fundamentally wrong with the event itself, not with the workers. I've never seen anyone's life in danger at an auto-x event, nor do I expect to. And if a worker's life is ever in danger, it's nobody's fault but their own! If you can't replace a cone before the next car comes, then don't try to do so! IMO the only times a yellow flag should ever be thrown are (1) a car is in the way (spun out, broken, whatever), or (2) so many cones are down/out of position that there's just no way the next car will get through. There should never be a case in which a course worker chasing after a cone is relying on the previous flag station to protect him.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Based on all the events I've been to, the standard has always been that Novices run in the afternoon, so to ask whether any of them ran in the morning is kind of pointless. Would that have been a good thing (to spread the 17 Novices out)? Yes. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody had any reason to suspect there would so many Novices, so nobody had any reason to ask some of them to run in the morning.
Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
i'm also there whenever there is an emergency whether central knows it or not. in other words i'm in the medical profession and i care about peoples lives. so when people aren't doing their job such as being ready to flag another car comming directly after a situation on the course or even a corner worker resetting the course, then it puts lives in danger.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
07-20-2005, 09:50 PM
#78
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 18
Thank you for understanding. I was not intending this to be an arguement.....really I wasnt. I just felt bad that we were already a problem because there were so many of us new people.....but so far our presence there has been met with negativity. Dont think for a moment that we dont feel bad and stupid in our inability to make the correct calls in the little time that we have, but at the same time, to have everyone constantly complain about us without any positive feedback is a little much.
That is the entire point that I was trying to say without insulting or directing any comments personally.
That is the entire point that I was trying to say without insulting or directing any comments personally.
07-20-2005, 11:05 PM
#79
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: HI- proud to be- N.A.
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Car Info: 2008 Legacy 3.0R 3L H-6 RIP :( Hello 09 FXT!
-okay when you quoted my 1st post i did say most noobs not all.
-i do aggree with you about giving the noobs some slack heck i'm still a noob but is some cases you learn the hard way. i had numerious amounts of criticism many times and i don't regret any criticism that was brought about me. that's what made me learn and made me stronger. that is how i learn.
-my guess is that you misunderstood my original post so i have to mention this. that afternoon there was an incident where a person was trying to put back cones while a car was going through the course. some people saw this person but did not react. no one flagged the vehicle. the person that was holding the flag was drinking a soda and wandering around and not paying attention also. i among others saw this and tried to prevent this person from getting hurt. (this happened by the cross over). now the person that went to pick up the cones realized what was going to happen and the person ran back out of the course. now as to 808subaru was mentioning the guy that had his shirt off, sitting down and had his walkietalkie on the floor was there watching this and he did nothing. - this was what i was referring to. this action was very dangerous and that was what i was upset about. hey i didn't want to mention this incident in public because this particular person might be a member and be all humiliated. but hey i had to prove my point so whoever you are sorry.
-again i care about people's safety and that was what made me upset.
-pat and xlr8sn my post was never meant to be hostile. if you take that way then let me tell you again it's not meant to be hostile. maybe i should post more smiles or something with every post i make.
and...thee end.
ps - no hard feelings
-i do aggree with you about giving the noobs some slack heck i'm still a noob but is some cases you learn the hard way. i had numerious amounts of criticism many times and i don't regret any criticism that was brought about me. that's what made me learn and made me stronger. that is how i learn.
-my guess is that you misunderstood my original post so i have to mention this. that afternoon there was an incident where a person was trying to put back cones while a car was going through the course. some people saw this person but did not react. no one flagged the vehicle. the person that was holding the flag was drinking a soda and wandering around and not paying attention also. i among others saw this and tried to prevent this person from getting hurt. (this happened by the cross over). now the person that went to pick up the cones realized what was going to happen and the person ran back out of the course. now as to 808subaru was mentioning the guy that had his shirt off, sitting down and had his walkietalkie on the floor was there watching this and he did nothing. - this was what i was referring to. this action was very dangerous and that was what i was upset about. hey i didn't want to mention this incident in public because this particular person might be a member and be all humiliated. but hey i had to prove my point so whoever you are sorry.
-again i care about people's safety and that was what made me upset.
-pat and xlr8sn my post was never meant to be hostile. if you take that way then let me tell you again it's not meant to be hostile. maybe i should post more smiles or something with every post i make.
and...thee end.
ps - no hard feelings
Last edited by CallMeCrazy; 07-20-2005 at 11:11 PM.
07-20-2005, 11:16 PM
#82
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Car Info: 2008 Legacy 3.0R 3L H-6 RIP :( Hello 09 FXT!
Originally Posted by iNfEk
wow... and I thought that I missed ANOTHER 
auto-x
continue as you were
Jon
auto-xcontinue as you were
Jon
07-20-2005, 11:20 PM
#83
Registered User
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: HNL, HI and behind a viewfinder :D
Posts: 2,841
Car Info: 2011 White Forester.
Communication is a key to success... after reading all this, I am pretty scared now to enter the next AutoX as a NOOB since it will be my first track day besides being there as a spectator.
Anyway, I will see you guys next month behind the wheel
Hell yeah, I finally got my helmet!
Peace.
Anyway, I will see you guys next month behind the wheel
Hell yeah, I finally got my helmet!
Peace.
07-20-2005, 11:38 PM
#85
Sheesh...if anyone has anything to say about how it is run (as far as the way the Solo II chiefs and those who set up the event), PM me and talk to me. I hate having to read entire tirade posts from people making a big deal out of nothing. Yes...experienced drivers get upset when they get called on by inexperienced workers. Sometimes they are wrong and they shut up (been there).
The main thing for new people is that if you have questions, ask. There are no stupid questions, especially when you first start out. EVERYONE starts out a new guy (or gal) and everyone learns. I was a nOoB once...but i paid attention, asked questions and took time to watch. The misconception is that people come to race and do a $hitty job working the course cause they don't care (especially if they have already raced). If you care about other people and are watchful out there, then there is no problem.
No need to take offense...but if anyone does want to say anythiong to me, PM me.
(Let the PM inbox filling commence!)
The main thing for new people is that if you have questions, ask. There are no stupid questions, especially when you first start out. EVERYONE starts out a new guy (or gal) and everyone learns. I was a nOoB once...but i paid attention, asked questions and took time to watch. The misconception is that people come to race and do a $hitty job working the course cause they don't care (especially if they have already raced). If you care about other people and are watchful out there, then there is no problem.
No need to take offense...but if anyone does want to say anythiong to me, PM me.
(Let the PM inbox filling commence!)
07-20-2005, 11:55 PM
#86
after reading all of this, i decided to add in my $.02. this is by no means intended to offend anyone.
1. noobs, ask questions and if you're unsure of things, ask for help or call central for assistance. i know i asked a lot of questions when i started out.
2. everyone is out there to have fun and compete. some take it more seriously than others (myself included), but in the end, we're civil and most of us are very friendly when things are done.
3. the scca officials volunteer their time and work hard at each auto-x. they are sometimes unable to help all the noobs, or remember everything that they have to go over. if you can't get help from the officials, then read the scca manual. you can download it free at www.scca.org
4. i think that callmecrazy and 808subaru were just expressing their frustration with the some of the noobs not paying attention to things. as a competitor, we get upset when the course is not reset (especially when you're having a good run). and usually it is clearly stated at the driver's meeting that we have to stand while working, quickly reset the course, and call in the cone, dnf's, etc. with the car number and class.
5. and there is some danger involved when working and we all have to be attentive. i was working at the off-camber on a course where a lot of drivers were hitting the cones at the turn, so i was standing pretty close so i could reset the course before the next cars got to the turn. during that heat, a car was coming in pretty hot and spun out onto the grass area. if i was not paying attention, i probably would have been hit. just something to think about.
6. XLR8SN - if you have any questions about auto-x, ask me at the next event, next meet, or send me a pm. if i don't have the answer, i can try to direct you to someone who can.
i was a noob at one time too, and still considered a noob by some of the people who have been autoxing for years. i still make mistakes, ask questions, etc. we all have to learn. sometimes doing a SEARCH on things is not good enough, and its probably better to ask the people who auto-x every month.
callmecrazy and 808subaru, i probably would have gotten pissed too if i saw people sitting down and cruising. XLR8SN, i'm sure if you asked questions and doing your best to work the track, then there comments were probably not directed at you. it was generalizing, just like you said earlier.
luktang and tiare - hope this doesn't keep you from coming out next month. hope to see you there.
ty #ESP 13
1. noobs, ask questions and if you're unsure of things, ask for help or call central for assistance. i know i asked a lot of questions when i started out.
2. everyone is out there to have fun and compete. some take it more seriously than others (myself included), but in the end, we're civil and most of us are very friendly when things are done.
3. the scca officials volunteer their time and work hard at each auto-x. they are sometimes unable to help all the noobs, or remember everything that they have to go over. if you can't get help from the officials, then read the scca manual. you can download it free at www.scca.org
4. i think that callmecrazy and 808subaru were just expressing their frustration with the some of the noobs not paying attention to things. as a competitor, we get upset when the course is not reset (especially when you're having a good run). and usually it is clearly stated at the driver's meeting that we have to stand while working, quickly reset the course, and call in the cone, dnf's, etc. with the car number and class.
5. and there is some danger involved when working and we all have to be attentive. i was working at the off-camber on a course where a lot of drivers were hitting the cones at the turn, so i was standing pretty close so i could reset the course before the next cars got to the turn. during that heat, a car was coming in pretty hot and spun out onto the grass area. if i was not paying attention, i probably would have been hit. just something to think about.
6. XLR8SN - if you have any questions about auto-x, ask me at the next event, next meet, or send me a pm. if i don't have the answer, i can try to direct you to someone who can.
i was a noob at one time too, and still considered a noob by some of the people who have been autoxing for years. i still make mistakes, ask questions, etc. we all have to learn. sometimes doing a SEARCH on things is not good enough, and its probably better to ask the people who auto-x every month.
callmecrazy and 808subaru, i probably would have gotten pissed too if i saw people sitting down and cruising. XLR8SN, i'm sure if you asked questions and doing your best to work the track, then there comments were probably not directed at you. it was generalizing, just like you said earlier.
luktang and tiare - hope this doesn't keep you from coming out next month. hope to see you there.
ty #ESP 13
07-21-2005, 03:49 AM
#87
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: mid-atlantic/va
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ok i think we got this all worked out. i just got out out work, and could'nt believe all the responses. This matter was discussed with Jennifer Lee on that very sunday so it has been brought to the attention of "the tower people". I was there for the whole day, so i believe that i saw it unfolding quickly. If anyone would like to discuss this lmk. i'm done...let's go get a beer people...
07-21-2005, 03:56 AM
#88
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: in da shower with Latka...
Posts: 1,013
Car Info: 2007 7.0RS
Originally Posted by Ditchhanger
No need to take offense...but if anyone does want to say anythiong to me, PM me.
(Let the PM inbox filling commence!)
(Let the PM inbox filling commence!)
and i'll be calling in sick to help out with the august event...
07-21-2005, 04:43 AM
#89
Originally Posted by luktang
Man... do I have a lot to learn about Auto-X or what...
Last edited by de pilipino guy; 07-21-2005 at 04:47 AM.