Vishnu vs. Cobb reflash?
11-09-2003, 10:55 PM
#16
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Yes their off the shelf maps will work but some cars are more prone to knock than others. Not every map will work properly with every car. If you get your car tuned by someone you can tell them to be more conservitive and safe instead of getting max hp. And lets say you had Shiv tune your car, it is very possible that he would tune it to his off the shelf map but he would know for sure that is wasn't detonating, he listens for it during the tune and on his post tune drive.
I hardly would consider "you are on crack" anything to get your panties in a bunch about.
Also like I said before, Shiv does come out to tune cars and so does Clark (AZscooby I think). I don't know where in your area they could tune, try your local forum. I do know Shiv has been out to the NE before.
I hardly would consider "you are on crack" anything to get your panties in a bunch about.
Also like I said before, Shiv does come out to tune cars and so does Clark (AZscooby I think). I don't know where in your area they could tune, try your local forum. I do know Shiv has been out to the NE before.
11-10-2003, 12:52 AM
#17
@Stoptech
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I also seem to remember a local dyno day that went down not too long ago right here in the bay area. The dyno conditions that day were horrible, the air was hot and there were not enough fans on hand to circulate the proper amount of air for the intercoolers and radiators. Vishnu, i-speed, and Cobb ECUs were used on the same car with no mods. I-speed didn't have a map for a stock car, so their ECU pinged badly, but their reflash was not able to pull timing to prevent more knock. Cobb's ECU (no Cobb employees were on hand, just the reflashed ECU) also knocked badly, and again, their ECU was not able to pull timing to compensate. Vishnu's ECU then went up, knocked, and was able to pull timing to a more conservative map to eliminate the detonation event. The only problem with this story is that I was NOT there, so it is very possible that my version of the story isn't true. If you're interested, do a search in BAIC for three months ago and you'll see the thread. Vaus is the guy who I believe was running the dyno as it was run at ATP iirc. Perhaps one of the people who was there that day can comment on it if you are reading this.
The point is that some tuners modify the knock threshold of the ECU when they reflash them, or do something to the ECU that prevents it from pulling timing to save the engine from catastrophic damage when knock does occur. Vishnu ECUs retain their ability to pull timing if they see knock.
The point is that some tuners modify the knock threshold of the ECU when they reflash them, or do something to the ECU that prevents it from pulling timing to save the engine from catastrophic damage when knock does occur. Vishnu ECUs retain their ability to pull timing if they see knock.
11-10-2003, 06:36 AM
#18
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Originally posted by Akiata
You are on crack.
You are on crack.
:banana: <- even he is..
back OT - according to COBB, with stage 2, there are certain mods where the ECU is able to make changes to better suit efficiency of the stock turbo than even you could making adjustments..
IMHO - dont waste your money on dyno tuning unless you have a different turbo or n2o.. other than that the gains arent worth the extra money.. spend it on suspension mods..
with $395 for a reflash (and eventually $100 more for a map switcher) you just cant go wrong with COBB ..
BTW - first post.. long time reader, first time poster
11-11-2003, 07:22 AM
#21
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Location: Buffalo NY :(
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Car Info: 2003 Subaru Impreza WRX
Steppin Razor, question for ya: I just had my ecu reflashed by COBB for stage 2 ( have vishnu turbo back and GFB BOV), and when i first installed it and started tooling around, I almost crapped myself. My car was faster than I ever thought it could be.... That was two weeks ago.
Now, it still boosts up to about 17 psi, and the boost come on faster than it did with stock, and it is considerably faster than it was before the reflash... but not like when I first installed it.
Could the reason for this have anything to do with an alteration in timing? I have heard that there is a factor that ranges from -16 - 16 in units of "4" that is used by your ecu to essentially judge the timing advance or retard (im out of my knowledge limits here, so please dont chew me up
). I figure that maybe I was getting some knock events, and the ecu has since compensated.
Anyway, its dissapointing. I absolutely loved the way my car ran for about 3 days... and I still do now, but well, whatever... ill deal if it is better for my engine
Now, it still boosts up to about 17 psi, and the boost come on faster than it did with stock, and it is considerably faster than it was before the reflash... but not like when I first installed it.
Could the reason for this have anything to do with an alteration in timing? I have heard that there is a factor that ranges from -16 - 16 in units of "4" that is used by your ecu to essentially judge the timing advance or retard (im out of my knowledge limits here, so please dont chew me up
). I figure that maybe I was getting some knock events, and the ecu has since compensated. Anyway, its dissapointing. I absolutely loved the way my car ran for about 3 days... and I still do now, but well, whatever... ill deal if it is better for my engine
11-11-2003, 07:31 AM
#22
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I'd say check the air temp...
Don't know where your located, but if it's gotten warmer, your ECU will pull some timing, boost, etc...
Also, did you do the kamakaze start-up? If you pulled your battery and ran the snott out of it (ie max perform restart), your computer could be relearning your gas type, driving style, etc...so, it could just be your computer learning. Seems like mine takes a full throttle run or two before it'll give me max anything. Try that first. If not, pull your battery cables, restart and drive it like ya stole it and don't ever let off...
Derck
Don't know where your located, but if it's gotten warmer, your ECU will pull some timing, boost, etc...
Also, did you do the kamakaze start-up? If you pulled your battery and ran the snott out of it (ie max perform restart), your computer could be relearning your gas type, driving style, etc...so, it could just be your computer learning. Seems like mine takes a full throttle run or two before it'll give me max anything. Try that first. If not, pull your battery cables, restart and drive it like ya stole it and don't ever let off...
Derck
11-11-2003, 07:45 AM
#23
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Location: Buffalo NY :(
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Car Info: 2003 Subaru Impreza WRX
Nice, that is something I have not thought of. I guess outside air temperature is crucial. When I reinstalled the ECU, it was about 45 degrees, and now it is about 30 
Sucks! I hate the cold...
Anyway, yeah, I am very kind to my car. I have no idea why, I should beat it like a rented mule. Maybe Ill pull the batery cable and reset the ecu and try again. Doubt it, but that will not erase the COBB map, will it? Cannot imagine it would.
Thanks!
Sucks! I hate the cold... Anyway, yeah, I am very kind to my car. I have no idea why, I should beat it like a rented mule. Maybe Ill pull the batery cable and reset the ecu and try again. Doubt it, but that will not erase the COBB map, will it? Cannot imagine it would.
Thanks!
11-11-2003, 07:47 AM
#24
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I think that a custom tune can be every bit as safe as an off-the-shelf map, while eeking out a little bit more power. This depends on the skills of the tuner, of course, and also how conservatively they custom tune.
An off-the-shelf map will work well on pretty much everyone's car but it's a compromise. A tuner will have experience with a good sampling of vehicles and know what makes power. At one end of this sampling range will be some cars that will be more detonation-prone. This is probably close to the map that is offered off-the-shelf to customers because it is absolutely safe unless something is wrong with the factory ECU or boost controls.
A custom tune can find additional power in most cases because there are car to car variances in the mechanical parts such as the turbo, the flow rate of individual injectors, perhaps the static compression ratio in the cylinders, the intake manifold and cylinder port castings, etc.
Also, in the northeast Pruven Performance has an AWD chassis dyno and Shiv has made at least two trips out there to custom tune cars.
EDIT: That's cars, not just one car.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
An off-the-shelf map will work well on pretty much everyone's car but it's a compromise. A tuner will have experience with a good sampling of vehicles and know what makes power. At one end of this sampling range will be some cars that will be more detonation-prone. This is probably close to the map that is offered off-the-shelf to customers because it is absolutely safe unless something is wrong with the factory ECU or boost controls.
A custom tune can find additional power in most cases because there are car to car variances in the mechanical parts such as the turbo, the flow rate of individual injectors, perhaps the static compression ratio in the cylinders, the intake manifold and cylinder port castings, etc.
Also, in the northeast Pruven Performance has an AWD chassis dyno and Shiv has made at least two trips out there to custom tune cars.
EDIT: That's cars, not just one car.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
Last edited by Wingless Wonder; 11-11-2003 at 07:51 AM.
11-11-2003, 06:22 PM
#25
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 159
I had my car dyno'd at the ATP dyno day with a Cobb Stage II reflash. As mentioned above, conditions were abysmal with ambient temps of 90+ by 10AM. My car pinged one time on the first pull, compensated and still managed 216.8HP and 214.2FT-LB on the third and final pull - not bad considering the conditions. This was with Scoobysport DP/MPs, Prodrive axleback, Samco IC hoses and yanked intake resonator (Stock uppipe and crap 91 octane)
To get back on-topic, I would recommend Cobb for your situation for a few reasons:
1) You are not located near either Vishnu or Cobb, so no advantage there (i.e. dyno tune)
2) You do not plan to go past Stage II, so off-the-shelf map will work fine. Cobb's reflash is significantly cheaper than ECUtek and there is very little difference in their off-the-shelf Stage II maps from what I can tell. Hence the reason I have Cobb.
As others have mentioned, you do NOT need a boost controller with a reflash. It would actually defeat the purpose of paying for all of the safety features of a reflash. I would also recommend staying with the stock intake and stock BOV for Stage II. I came from the Honda world as well, but things are different here. CAIs are well known to cause lean conditions and CELs on WRXs (MAF is very sensitive) without proper dyno tuning and the gains are minimal unless you're making big power. BOV is your call if you like the noise, just make sure you buy the right kind as many of the used ones up for grabs are usually the wrong kind.
Jimbo
To get back on-topic, I would recommend Cobb for your situation for a few reasons:
1) You are not located near either Vishnu or Cobb, so no advantage there (i.e. dyno tune)
2) You do not plan to go past Stage II, so off-the-shelf map will work fine. Cobb's reflash is significantly cheaper than ECUtek and there is very little difference in their off-the-shelf Stage II maps from what I can tell. Hence the reason I have Cobb.
As others have mentioned, you do NOT need a boost controller with a reflash. It would actually defeat the purpose of paying for all of the safety features of a reflash. I would also recommend staying with the stock intake and stock BOV for Stage II. I came from the Honda world as well, but things are different here. CAIs are well known to cause lean conditions and CELs on WRXs (MAF is very sensitive) without proper dyno tuning and the gains are minimal unless you're making big power. BOV is your call if you like the noise, just make sure you buy the right kind as many of the used ones up for grabs are usually the wrong kind.
Jimbo
Last edited by Jimbo; 11-11-2003 at 06:30 PM.
11-12-2003, 03:51 AM
#26
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KTR Performance in Ayer, MA, is getting into the Ecutek reflash business. I just got a custom reflash from them and I'm pretty pleased with it. The car is quite badass feeling with more ***** to the power. I got 22 extra hp the first time, and that was very conservative due to the limits of the VF24 with stock injectors. After STi injectors were installed I got another 35hp. The guy who does the reflashes, Guy, know his stuff, and is keen on demonstrating how he does it They've also installed all my parts.
A bonus for the place is that there are some goddamn sick cars there for drooling on, like a Ferrari 250 and a 288 GTO, lots of Porsche Turbos, some Maseratis, Alfas, etc. Their sister operation, KTR Motorsports, restores, maintains, and stores these cars.
They are having a Subaru dyno day and Ecutek demonstration on Nov. 22nd: http://www.ktrperformance.com/galler...u_day_1103.htm
A bonus for the place is that there are some goddamn sick cars there for drooling on, like a Ferrari 250 and a 288 GTO, lots of Porsche Turbos, some Maseratis, Alfas, etc. Their sister operation, KTR Motorsports, restores, maintains, and stores these cars.
They are having a Subaru dyno day and Ecutek demonstration on Nov. 22nd: http://www.ktrperformance.com/galler...u_day_1103.htm
Last edited by McBain; 11-12-2003 at 04:02 AM.
11-12-2003, 09:00 AM
#27
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Thanks for the replies on this. McBain, thanks for the link on the Dyno day...I'd love to see where i stand.
Thanks for all the suggestions here. I appreciate it. What are the thoughts on an upgrade path starting here? Is it recommended to start with the re-flash, and then go at the exaust? I'm trying to do this in steps due to financial reasons, and the re-flash seems the logical starting point.
Thanks for all the suggestions here. I appreciate it. What are the thoughts on an upgrade path starting here? Is it recommended to start with the re-flash, and then go at the exaust? I'm trying to do this in steps due to financial reasons, and the re-flash seems the logical starting point.
11-13-2003, 09:21 AM
#28
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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my friend sent me this, it is not out yet, but it is basically a reflash for the ecu that isn't a reflash, it gives you total control, and it is from cobb.
maybe next summer for me
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ulti...1;t=000017;p=1
maybe next summer for me
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ulti...1;t=000017;p=1
11-13-2003, 04:07 PM
#30
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Origami posted by Ender2664
Is it better to get the reflash or use the turbo xs piggy back system?
Turbo XS uses the UTEC. It allows full user tuning of the ECU, which a lot of people like. Some reflashes allow some degree of user tuning but not as extensive as the UTEC. The reflashes are pretty much trouble-free, though, since they rely on a professional tuner to make the tuning map. Probably depends on your preferences and whether you plan on making incremental changes over time or doing most mods within the next few months and then you're done. The UTEC and XEDE can handle a lot of different mods (although I've never tuned a car myself) so the initial cost may be higher but cost-effective in the long term.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
Is it better to get the reflash or use the turbo xs piggy back system?
Turbo XS uses the UTEC. It allows full user tuning of the ECU, which a lot of people like. Some reflashes allow some degree of user tuning but not as extensive as the UTEC. The reflashes are pretty much trouble-free, though, since they rely on a professional tuner to make the tuning map. Probably depends on your preferences and whether you plan on making incremental changes over time or doing most mods within the next few months and then you're done. The UTEC and XEDE can handle a lot of different mods (although I've never tuned a car myself) so the initial cost may be higher but cost-effective in the long term.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush