tofuman

iTrader: (31)

After going stage II w/ COBB AP, I decided I want more but I'm not looking to go with anything crazy because my suby is my DD and I have plans to Auto-X as well. Thought about going w/ a used VF-xx turbo but the more I thought about it (and have seen first hand w/ a friend), people aren't always honest about the condition of a used turbo so you risk wasting a large chunk of cash if you buy a bad one. A new (bigger) turbo costs an arm and a leg so I'm thinking about doing this td-04 upgrade offered by Blouch Perfomance. I have a friend going with a bigger turbo soon and he offered his td-04 to me in exchange for my old one once the one he gives me has had the upgrade done and is installed on my car.

http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/WR...essor_Upgrade/

My goals are to keep the power curve in the lower/mid-rpm, quick spool and to make 250whp/250+wtq and I think this, combined with injectors, fuel pump and a reliable tune will get me there (if not a little bit more).

My question is this.. Is it worth it? @ $400 for a ported/balanced/upgraded/rebuilt turbo? Or should I go bigger and find a low mileage VF or 16g?

I'm hoping Paul and a few other tuners chime in..

meilers

That will get you nowhere near 250/250. 310 at the crank is about 220 to the wheels.

tofuman

iTrader: (31)

310 is a base number for that turbo. There are quite a few ppl on nasioc running this setup with dyno charts on semi-aggressive tunes running around 250. Anyhow, I got an email from a very reputable tuner that strongly advised against this particular setup as they said they've seen a lot of tuning issues with it so I guess I'm going to wait and save up for something else.

meilers

The reason it is a bad setup is that the CFM of a TD04, ported and polished or not, is tiny, and to get 310hp out of it would be pushing it and the engine to the very edge of its performance envelope. And again, only on a very forgiving dyno would 310hp = 250 to the wheels. A 80hp power loss is more common.

Subadubaru

iTrader: (14)

i have had the same debate!!! i think i decided to go with a blouch 16g... i want to know what others have to say about it.... PAUL!!!! where you at?

tofuman

iTrader: (31)

The response from the tuner sounded like a great setup (not 19t) but it also had a pretty hefty price tag attached. In the neighborhood of (parts only, i.e. M7760 turbo, equal length header and up-pipe, 800cc injectors, fuel pump + tune) about $4K+ !! Not knocking the awesomeness of it but definitely out of my price range at the moment!

venom225

iTrader: (2)

evo3 16g! ftw

amelnikov

There's a lot of misinformation floating out there, including some of the posts here. As the first person with upgraded stocker, I should know.
Here's lowdown. Back in 2002 I had my stock turbo upgraded with 16G compressor wheel and 14B turbine wheel. Other supporting mods were STI injectors, Walbro 255 lph high pressure pump, 3" turbo back exhaust with uppipe, and at the time S-AFC for fuel management. Boost was and still is controlled with a home made MBC. After dynotuning my WHP went from 177+ to 266 at 16psi.
The stock intercooler was limiting my power at that point.
Later on I upgraded to STI V7 intercooler and Grupe-s 4-1 header and switched to Link PnP ECU. I had AZ Scooby tune my combo on a much more conservative dyno and while the car was making a lot more power and was a lot quicker, the numbers were actually lower, 256 WHP.
I later upgraded to Access Port and ran similar numbers but always felt there's more in there.
In 2005 I switched to Utec and had my car re-tuned at ICS in CT by Junior.
Once again I was disappointed with my numbers when I got there but by the end of tuning session I was making damn near 300 WHP, and that's with no air going trough the intercooler and car very heat-soaked. I had to get a stronger clutch after that tune again, even though I've been running a stronger clutch since the last tune.
Here's the plot.


A couple of years ago I installed a large FMIC and immediately the car AF leaned out by 1.5. This just shows that even with V7 Intercooler it was still a bottleneck. Having no time to get a re-tune, I added methanol injection and the car became a complete beast.
So upgraded stocker can indeed make power.
Sometime around 2002 if I'm not mistaken, I've tried to organize a group buy for either same turbo as mine or an improved version featuring 19T compressor wheel instead of 16G. 19T compressor wheel is not only more efficient in small housings but it's also lighter, so it would spool faster.
One thing to remember, stock turbo has very small exhaust housing and a tiny exhaust wheel, so anything you do to improve that end will give you more power. Blouch Performance td04 upgrade will definitely get you to 250/250 with correct supporting mods but you should inquire about getting larger exhaust wheel if you want more than that.

Alex...

Shayhan27

iTrader: (4)

Dude it may be too big for you but godspeed has a tdo5/20g for $700. They usually put out pretty good stuff and have been around for awhile so maybe give them a try. If you can handle the lag that'l def get you over the 250hp mark.

amelnikov

20G is an overkill. It's good to about 500-600 whp with the right comgination and it is most definitely not an auto-x turbo, at least not on a 2.0.

Alex...

meilers

amelnikov, cool story and great numbers, but you are describing exactly why I would *not* go the route of changing out the TD04 core and instead just move to a VF43 or 16g for the 2.0 liter motor... you had to really work with that setup multiple times, add meth injection (VERY risky in my book) and change tuning methods (also outside my comfort zone) to get there. I could go to a VF43 and get 290whp this weekend, in one shot, with no meth injection, no headers, no outboard fuel or boost control and the stock ECU with ECUTEK flash. I've seen 2.0l motors make 290whp with a VF43 tuned to 80% injector duty cycle and extremely safe/conservative A/F ratios, stock ECU, STI intercooler and 3" exhaust/pump/STI "pinks."

I do not think the reduced spool time (which is tenths of a second) of the TD04 compensates for the safety margin you get by going to a bigger turbo and then tuning it to 80% of its CFM limit. The Blouche upgrade at $356 is moving close to a slightly-used VF39 or VF43 in price, pretty expensive IMO. I'm happy to see your faith in the "stocker" but after the changes you made to accommodate sticking with it and after changing out the core, is it still stock?

amelnikov

Thanks for complement but seems that even though you liked the story, you missed important parts of it.
I made 300WHP with my turbo without meth and FMIC.
"STI intercooler and 3" exhaust/pump/STI "pinks." was pretty much my setup, with addition of header, which IMHO, did not add power but rather moved the powerband up the rpm range and also slowed spool-up. I later switched to ported stock manifolds.
Also engine management does not make a difference if your tuner knows what he's doing. A reflash can make the same power as Utec as AP as Hydra and so on.
Using your argument, a stock ECU when reflashed is not stock anymore.
As for "safety factor" if you modify your car for more power, you reduce longevity, that's a given and how are you justifying your argument that a freshly rebuilt turbo is somehow less safe than a used VF series? That just does not compute.
Also keep in mind that "bigger" VF series flow less CFM than 16g/19T.

The original question was how to reliably and cheaply get to 250's whp and $400 upgrade of the stocker will most definitely get him there.

Alex...

amelnikov

Here's an old flow chart from another forum for reference. (note small 16G is 16G compressor wheel in td04 housing, large is td05)

Turbo Type Approx flow @ pressure
13G turbo 360 CFM at 14.7 PSI ( NOT used as the stock WRX turbo compressor )
IHI VF 25 370 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
Stock 13T Turbo 390 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- the stock turbo is actually a 13T compressor
IHI VF 26 390 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
T3 60 trim 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 27 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated

IHI VF 24/28/29 410 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
========= 422 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
IHI VF 23 423 CFM at 14.7 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID 430 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- derived from HP potential listed on web
IHI VF-30 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
SR 30 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF-22 440 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- refigured
T04E 40 trim 460 CFM at 14.7 PSI
========= 464 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
PE1818 490 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
Small 16G 505 CFM at 14.7 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) 525 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
Large 16G 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 40 595 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
PE 1820 630 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
20G 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 50 710 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-30 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-35R 820 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T72 920 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- Note you would have to spin a 2.0 L
engine at about 14,000 rpm to flow this much air.

IHI VF 25 395 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 26 400 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
stock turbo 13T ~410 cfm at 16 psi <--- estimated
T3 60 trim 410 CFM at 20 PSI
IHI VF 27 420 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 24/28/29 425 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 23 430 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF-30 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- estimate based on trap speeds of cars running this turbo
AVO 320HP 465 CFM at 17.5 PSI
T04E 40 trim 465 CFM at 22 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI
IHI VF-22 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- refigured
SR 30 490 CFM at 22 PSI
Small 16G 490 CFM at 22 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) 500 CFM at 19 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002
PE1818 515 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
Large 16G 520 CFM at 22 PSI <--- upgraded flow some on review of compressor map
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

========= 578 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT2835 400 hp 580 CFM at 22 PSI
MRT 400 580 CFM at 16 PSI <--- added
AVO 400HP 580 CFM at 17.5 PSI
MRT 450 650 CFM at 19 PSI <--- added
AVO 450HP 650 CFM at 20.0 PSI
SR 40 650 CFM at 22 PSI <--- added, got lost some how in editing
========= 658 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT3037 460 hp 670 CFM at 22 PSI
PE 1820 680 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
20G 695 CFM at 20.0 PSI <--- added
HKS GT3040 490 hp 710 CFM at 22 PSI
AVO 500HP 725 CFM at 23.0 PSI
SR 50 770 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-30 790 CFM at 22 PSI
60-1 800 CFM at 22 PSI
HKS GT3240 570 hp 830 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-35R 880 CFM at 22 PSI
T72 1000 CFM at 22 PSI <--- note you would have to run a 2.0 L engine
at >40 PSI boost to flow this much air

Alex...