Header and Exhaust HP Gains
02-11-2003, 10:19 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Header and Exhaust HP Gains
Hi, this is David Borla from Borla exhaust. I'd like to know what kind of HP gains you guys expect from an aftermarket header for your WRX. Cat-Back? Up-Pipe?
I was also wondering who offers the most HP gain from an aftermarket WRX header?
I've noticed that a lot of the headers out there are polished and I'm wondering if that's something that's important to WRX owners. Polishing is quite expensive and significantly raises the MSRP. Would you rather save the money and have a non-polished T-304 header?
Any feedback you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
I was also wondering who offers the most HP gain from an aftermarket WRX header?
I've noticed that a lot of the headers out there are polished and I'm wondering if that's something that's important to WRX owners. Polishing is quite expensive and significantly raises the MSRP. Would you rather save the money and have a non-polished T-304 header?
Any feedback you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
02-11-2003, 12:47 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
If the price is right I would like to see a nonpolished header. Equal length 4-2-1. Are you saying that you can tune a header for whatever gain you are looking for? Also a nonpolished uppipe with the same design flex as the stock piece would be nice. A twin dump downpipe nonpolished. Does the polishing really raise the price that much? Are we talking 2, 5, 10, >20% of the price? About the gains I have a Utec so I can retune to make as much power as the parts will allow. Some one without this capability may not see any gain at all. I have heard that the ECU in the WRX will adapt and learn around most mods. That might be something to think about. If you are going to make something for the WRX I know before and after dyno plots with the conditions that the dyno runs were made at will help sell them. And you might want before and after plots of just slapping them on and tunning.
Sorry for the ramble.
Sorry for the ramble.
02-11-2003, 03:37 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by mmurray75
If the price is right I would like to see a nonpolished header. Equal length 4-2-1. Are you saying that you can tune a header for whatever gain you are looking for? Also a nonpolished uppipe with the same design flex as the stock piece would be nice. A twin dump downpipe nonpolished. Does the polishing really raise the price that much? Are we talking 2, 5, 10, >20% of the price? About the gains I have a Utec so I can retune to make as much power as the parts will allow. Some one without this capability may not see any gain at all. I have heard that the ECU in the WRX will adapt and learn around most mods. That might be something to think about. If you are going to make something for the WRX I know before and after dyno plots with the conditions that the dyno runs were made at will help sell them. And you might want before and after plots of just slapping them on and tunning.
Sorry for the ramble.
If the price is right I would like to see a nonpolished header. Equal length 4-2-1. Are you saying that you can tune a header for whatever gain you are looking for? Also a nonpolished uppipe with the same design flex as the stock piece would be nice. A twin dump downpipe nonpolished. Does the polishing really raise the price that much? Are we talking 2, 5, 10, >20% of the price? About the gains I have a Utec so I can retune to make as much power as the parts will allow. Some one without this capability may not see any gain at all. I have heard that the ECU in the WRX will adapt and learn around most mods. That might be something to think about. If you are going to make something for the WRX I know before and after dyno plots with the conditions that the dyno runs were made at will help sell them. And you might want before and after plots of just slapping them on and tunning.
Sorry for the ramble.
02-11-2003, 04:35 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
twin dump dp & 3rd cat pipe
it would be nice to have a twin dump dp and 3rd cat eliminator pipe like bosal, stromung and scoobysport made to match your cat back. good quality stainless and high manufacturing quality are more imporant than polishing.
james nicol
james nicol
02-11-2003, 04:41 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: twin dump dp & 3rd cat pipe
Originally posted by james nicol
it would be nice to have a twin dump dp and 3rd cat eliminator pipe like bosal, stromung and scoobysport made to match your cat back. good quality stainless and high manufacturing quality are more imporant than polishing.
james nicol
it would be nice to have a twin dump dp and 3rd cat eliminator pipe like bosal, stromung and scoobysport made to match your cat back. good quality stainless and high manufacturing quality are more imporant than polishing.
james nicol
Big up Brooklyn!! Did you know that Borla started in Greenpoint in 1977? We moved to Cali in 1982.
02-11-2003, 04:52 PM
#6
I'd really like to see an equal length 4-1 w/ bolt on up pipe. Think Maxim works w/ a bolt on uppipe. That or an equal lenth 421 one piece. Polished is not important as it does not last, and offers no benefits. I plan to ceramic coat mine anyway. I also hate flex joints in headers. I just don't trust their long term durability.
Speaking of downpipes, a twin dump dp that kills the last two cats would be a great item. Both Vishnu and Bosals don't do this. This means that anyone who wanted to go catless w/ one of the catbacks out there would have to use a stromung 3rd cat elim. And it's 2.5in. Obviously it's ideal to have no reductions in the exhaust on a turbo car post turbine, but that just makes the compromise even worse. If you guys did a 3in turbo back w/ an XR1, man I'd be all over that in a hurry. I love the round and oval XR1s.
My pointohtwo,
Ken
Speaking of downpipes, a twin dump dp that kills the last two cats would be a great item. Both Vishnu and Bosals don't do this. This means that anyone who wanted to go catless w/ one of the catbacks out there would have to use a stromung 3rd cat elim. And it's 2.5in. Obviously it's ideal to have no reductions in the exhaust on a turbo car post turbine, but that just makes the compromise even worse. If you guys did a 3in turbo back w/ an XR1, man I'd be all over that in a hurry. I love the round and oval XR1s.
My pointohtwo,
Ken
Last edited by DeliciouSpeed; 02-11-2003 at 05:03 PM.
02-11-2003, 05:02 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
I hear ya about the Bling Bling Polishing. I can do without that...
As far as a header, 4-1 or 4-2-1, I have no preference. I would just like to see an integrated uppipe. I also second the request for a Downpipe, but I'd like one with a hi-flow cat that will be 3" diameter and mate up to a cat back exhaust.
If you can keep the header under $600 and the Downpipe under $500 that would be Great.
BTW... Much props to Borla for developing parts for imports. JDM is cool and everything, but the way I see it.... If they can do it, we can do it just as well or better and without the JDM markup.
As far as a header, 4-1 or 4-2-1, I have no preference. I would just like to see an integrated uppipe. I also second the request for a Downpipe, but I'd like one with a hi-flow cat that will be 3" diameter and mate up to a cat back exhaust.
If you can keep the header under $600 and the Downpipe under $500 that would be Great.
BTW... Much props to Borla for developing parts for imports. JDM is cool and everything, but the way I see it.... If they can do it, we can do it just as well or better and without the JDM markup.
02-11-2003, 08:54 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
I would like to see an inexpensive header which undeniably improves bottom end (if that's possible)
Looks are unimportant.
I think there are a number of headers which undeniably increase top end and are very ambiguous in the bottom end. Advertised dyno plots are always a stock WRX against a header + up-pipe (an unfair comparison which of course shows improved bottom end) Tuners have reported few if any headers actually improve bottom end in a back to back.
I believe that if you can make a reasonably priced piece. With real proof of retained or improved bottom end against a comparably equipped car with stock header, then you would have a very good seller.
I believe the mixed reports of bottom end are what hold people back from buying headers. If you can provide conclusive results that people believe then I think there is no question that you WILL sell headers.
If you provide ambiguous dynos with fuzzy results, you'll be no different from many of the other reasonably priced headers on the market right now and you will have a tough time selling your wares unless you're simply the cheapest on the block.
I beleive I'm not alone in saying looks will not sell me a header, the design of the header (4-2-1 vs. 4-1) will not sell me a header, believable dyno comparisons absolutely will sell me a header.
Looks are unimportant.
I think there are a number of headers which undeniably increase top end and are very ambiguous in the bottom end. Advertised dyno plots are always a stock WRX against a header + up-pipe (an unfair comparison which of course shows improved bottom end) Tuners have reported few if any headers actually improve bottom end in a back to back.
I believe that if you can make a reasonably priced piece. With real proof of retained or improved bottom end against a comparably equipped car with stock header, then you would have a very good seller.
I believe the mixed reports of bottom end are what hold people back from buying headers. If you can provide conclusive results that people believe then I think there is no question that you WILL sell headers.
If you provide ambiguous dynos with fuzzy results, you'll be no different from many of the other reasonably priced headers on the market right now and you will have a tough time selling your wares unless you're simply the cheapest on the block.
I beleive I'm not alone in saying looks will not sell me a header, the design of the header (4-2-1 vs. 4-1) will not sell me a header, believable dyno comparisons absolutely will sell me a header.
Last edited by Concillian; 02-11-2003 at 09:01 PM.
02-11-2003, 09:34 PM
#11
@Stoptech
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,416
Car Info: 2002 WRX Wagon
Originally posted by Concillian
I would like to see an inexpensive header which undeniably improves bottom end (if that's possible)
Looks are unimportant.
I beleive I'm not alone in saying looks will not sell me a header, the design of the header (4-2-1 vs. 4-1) will not sell me a header, believable dyno comparisons absolutely will sell me a header.
I would like to see an inexpensive header which undeniably improves bottom end (if that's possible)
Looks are unimportant.
I beleive I'm not alone in saying looks will not sell me a header, the design of the header (4-2-1 vs. 4-1) will not sell me a header, believable dyno comparisons absolutely will sell me a header.
I would definitely be interested in seeing a new header with proven power adding capabilities especially in the bottom end of the power curve, but not killing top-end either. If that's at all possible.
I would vote against the ceramic coating unless it's cheaper than sending the header out to be coated by Jet-Hots 2000+ coating. Thanks for taking a personal interest in our cars, David. Oh and I could care less how the thing looks either.
02-12-2003, 11:12 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks guys, this is great. Since HP gains seem to be the prevailing issue, I'd like to find out what is currently available for the WRX. What kind of HP gains do current aftermarket headers provide?
In case your wondering what I'm getting at, our goal is to build you the best aftermarket header available at the right price. I'm glad to hear that performance is more important to you guys than looks. Thanks again for your help.
In case your wondering what I'm getting at, our goal is to build you the best aftermarket header available at the right price. I'm glad to hear that performance is more important to you guys than looks. Thanks again for your help.
02-16-2003, 05:40 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
In short(ish):
Equal length tubing.
4 into 1 (faster exhaust velocity, quicker spool up?).
Unpolished, awesome option for those who don't care about looks.
Detachable Up-Pipe with aux bung for additional 02s. This would allow for those who are looking to upgrade their turbos, an easier path. Also, it allows for those customers, who may have already purchased an Up-Pipe, to not feel neglected as they too can upgrade only the exhaust manifold.
Single piece units should be optional, depending on demand.
3" high-flow cat.
Twin-Dump design. Recirculate back into airflow where pulse of the wastegate release is half velocity.
Low reversion, anti-reversion.
Tapered tube design? Again, higher velocity into the turbo.
Stainless through-bolts, with stainless nuts, for fasteners.
No CELs.
Thermal expansion joints, if necessary. (cost effective?)
Street versions (Stainless) and Race versions (Titanium or perhaps Iconel [Nickel Chromium])?
High durability and long life.
CARB approval?
Expected HP to be at least 30+BHP at the wheels with Exhaust Manifold/Up-Pipe/Down-Pipe/Exhaust-Pipe.
No loss in low-end torque. Remember, it is initally a 2 liter (with AWD to soak up lots of torque) before spool up, more torque would be a great improvement.
Polished option.
Coated option, with lifetime guarantee on coating if possible.
Impeccable fitment for both sedan and wagon (USDM).
Optional choices for back-box styles.
Titanium tubing/CF design would be cool, reasonably priced.
All gaskets, fasteners, and hangers (Urethane) included in kit form.
Don't know of too many, if any, posted dyno'ed numbers for headers JDM or otherwise.
WRX people could probably care less about a cat-back option. I think most would agree that, if they are to do an exhaust option, then it would be turbo back.
Thanks Santa (David)
-BlueMeanie
Just a thought.
Equal length tubing.
4 into 1 (faster exhaust velocity, quicker spool up?).
Unpolished, awesome option for those who don't care about looks.
Detachable Up-Pipe with aux bung for additional 02s. This would allow for those who are looking to upgrade their turbos, an easier path. Also, it allows for those customers, who may have already purchased an Up-Pipe, to not feel neglected as they too can upgrade only the exhaust manifold.
Single piece units should be optional, depending on demand.
3" high-flow cat.
Twin-Dump design. Recirculate back into airflow where pulse of the wastegate release is half velocity.
Low reversion, anti-reversion.
Tapered tube design? Again, higher velocity into the turbo.
Stainless through-bolts, with stainless nuts, for fasteners.
No CELs.
Thermal expansion joints, if necessary. (cost effective?)
Street versions (Stainless) and Race versions (Titanium or perhaps Iconel [Nickel Chromium])?
High durability and long life.
CARB approval?
Expected HP to be at least 30+BHP at the wheels with Exhaust Manifold/Up-Pipe/Down-Pipe/Exhaust-Pipe.
No loss in low-end torque. Remember, it is initally a 2 liter (with AWD to soak up lots of torque) before spool up, more torque would be a great improvement.
Polished option.
Coated option, with lifetime guarantee on coating if possible.
Impeccable fitment for both sedan and wagon (USDM).
Optional choices for back-box styles.
Titanium tubing/CF design would be cool, reasonably priced.
All gaskets, fasteners, and hangers (Urethane) included in kit form.
Don't know of too many, if any, posted dyno'ed numbers for headers JDM or otherwise.
WRX people could probably care less about a cat-back option. I think most would agree that, if they are to do an exhaust option, then it would be turbo back.
Thanks Santa (David)
-BlueMeanie
Just a thought.