Grounding kits?
11-16-2003, 06:10 PM
#46
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See: https://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...=grounding+mod
Jgrahn555 gives a fair explanation....there are several others if you do a search.
Jgrahn555 gives a fair explanation....there are several others if you do a search.
11-16-2003, 06:59 PM
#47
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Originally posted by Jgrahn555
Cam and crank angle sensors don't benefit too much, since their signals are variable reluctance spikes which don't really use a fixed reference anyway. That is to say, both sides of their signal go along wires to the ECU. Internally, the ECU does ground one side, but the "quality" of the signal isn't a big deal. The spikes are either there or not there.
The vehicle speed sensor isn't under the hood, but in any case, its signal is also either on or off, and nowhere in between, so the grounding improvement shouldn't matter there either. Naturally the same should hold for the various switches (idle switch, air conditioning switch, neutral switch, etc).
The injectors and ignition coil both have their grounds run back to their own ground pins on the ECU. So do the throttle position sensor, the pressure sensor, and the mass airflow sensor. So these guys don't really use the ground path through the chassis either.
The solenoids (like the idle air control valve, the pressure exchange solenoid, and the wastegate control solenoid) tend to ground through their respective control transistors in the ECU, as in a switched-ground system. So they don't use the chassis ground paths.
The coolant temperature sensor's ground wire is connected to the shield used for a few other signals, but it does connect directly to the ECU's sensor ground pin.
The knock sensor does ground through the engine block. So the "grounding mod" can clearly help improve the signal path from the knock sensor to the ECU. I don't have a clear understanding of how the ECU interprets the signal from the knock sensor, so I can't comment much on this. It's possible that this signal benefits from a clearer reference and it's possible that it doesn't.
The oxygen sensor doesn't have its own ground pin on the ECU, but its ground wire is connected to the ECU's ground wire. It's a 3-wire oxygen sensor. However, I do believe that this ground is only for the heater and not for the signal itself (4-wire sensors have a ground wire for the oxygen sensor signal).
Ah ha! Doing the grounding mod can help the oxygen sensor signal become clearer for sure! If I'm correct, the sensor grounds through the exhaust piping. This is sub-optimal. The exhaust develops oxidation on it which doesn't conduct well (unless you use stainless steel, but stainless itself is not a great conductor anyway). Furthermore, as the temperature of the exhaust piping changes, the resistance changes. This means sensor readings for the same air/fuel ratio can vary depending on the temperature.
[/B]
Cam and crank angle sensors don't benefit too much, since their signals are variable reluctance spikes which don't really use a fixed reference anyway. That is to say, both sides of their signal go along wires to the ECU. Internally, the ECU does ground one side, but the "quality" of the signal isn't a big deal. The spikes are either there or not there.
The vehicle speed sensor isn't under the hood, but in any case, its signal is also either on or off, and nowhere in between, so the grounding improvement shouldn't matter there either. Naturally the same should hold for the various switches (idle switch, air conditioning switch, neutral switch, etc).
The injectors and ignition coil both have their grounds run back to their own ground pins on the ECU. So do the throttle position sensor, the pressure sensor, and the mass airflow sensor. So these guys don't really use the ground path through the chassis either.
The solenoids (like the idle air control valve, the pressure exchange solenoid, and the wastegate control solenoid) tend to ground through their respective control transistors in the ECU, as in a switched-ground system. So they don't use the chassis ground paths.
The coolant temperature sensor's ground wire is connected to the shield used for a few other signals, but it does connect directly to the ECU's sensor ground pin.
The knock sensor does ground through the engine block. So the "grounding mod" can clearly help improve the signal path from the knock sensor to the ECU. I don't have a clear understanding of how the ECU interprets the signal from the knock sensor, so I can't comment much on this. It's possible that this signal benefits from a clearer reference and it's possible that it doesn't.
The oxygen sensor doesn't have its own ground pin on the ECU, but its ground wire is connected to the ECU's ground wire. It's a 3-wire oxygen sensor. However, I do believe that this ground is only for the heater and not for the signal itself (4-wire sensors have a ground wire for the oxygen sensor signal).
Ah ha! Doing the grounding mod can help the oxygen sensor signal become clearer for sure! If I'm correct, the sensor grounds through the exhaust piping. This is sub-optimal. The exhaust develops oxidation on it which doesn't conduct well (unless you use stainless steel, but stainless itself is not a great conductor anyway). Furthermore, as the temperature of the exhaust piping changes, the resistance changes. This means sensor readings for the same air/fuel ratio can vary depending on the temperature.
[/B]
Last time I checked the people that sell these kits dont even mention sensor quality, it's always that it improves upon the ignition systems function. Which it does not.
So:
If A: It does nothing for the ignition system, which wouldnt matter anyway
B: The concepts of ground potential in our context wouldnt matter anyway.
and
C: even if they did, subaru grounded the sensors through a common ground on the ECU.
What is the point of grounding mod? All you keep on saying is "you dont get it, it makes sense because. But of course I couldnt explain why it makes sense because you obviously cant understand it"
It's not that I dont understand it. It's that I do, and I understand it doesnt do anything. If you want to do this for bling factor etc, go ahead, but please dont go around telling people it adds power.
11-16-2003, 08:20 PM
#49
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Originally posted by Silver arrow
I'm not an electrician or professional mechanic, but If you look at the grounding strap claims from the magazine article you notice the oldest car their made the highest gains. Could it be that because the grounding straps are getting old and oxidizing maybe they aren't effective, and adding new grounds bring it back into spec. Also properly shielded wires in all types of electronic equipment is there to make it work optimally. Is it possible that the manufacture soures parts for the car based on price not quality. Could explain the transmission, intercooler and turbo pipe and many other pieces and parts that are made to be cost effective at the expense of performance.
I'm not an electrician or professional mechanic, but If you look at the grounding strap claims from the magazine article you notice the oldest car their made the highest gains. Could it be that because the grounding straps are getting old and oxidizing maybe they aren't effective, and adding new grounds bring it back into spec. Also properly shielded wires in all types of electronic equipment is there to make it work optimally. Is it possible that the manufacture soures parts for the car based on price not quality. Could explain the transmission, intercooler and turbo pipe and many other pieces and parts that are made to be cost effective at the expense of performance.
I guess next time I'll keep my unbridled skepticism to myself.I think your explanation (above) is probably the best overall. A grounding kit would indeed help an older car with serious degredation of its electrical system -- help it to return to NORMAL function, not gain mysterious free HP out of nowhere.
I'm pretty sure that the 1 HP gain for the newer cars is well within the margin of error for a dyno; in other words, a null result.
Those older cars also do not have computer-controlled timing and fuel mixture regulators; they might indeed rely upon the direct input of analog sensors. However, there is no reason for sensor cables to be grounded through anything but the sensor manager itself; they certainly wouldn't need to be grounded to the frame. In most cars I've worked on, only the battery terminal is grounded to the frame itself (this was true in my Rabbit, as well as my Isuzu Trooper II.)
I also think that it is pertinent to mention (as proven by my Rabbit example posted before) that it is indeed possible to ground a car INCORRECTLY and cause a SHORT. You will know if you did this, because 1) your battery will be drained overnight or 2) your car will not start or 3) your ECU catches on fire and hurls itself out of the car, followed by your wiring harness.
So, I guess the only question left to solve is if I get the Shiny BLUE grounding kit or the Kick-*** BLACK grounding wires -- heck, I'll have to pop my hood in the parking lot of Pep Boys for no reason at all just to show them off
Screw it, I have a few reels of Monster Cable speaker wire sitting here -- I'll just use that instead. After all, it is only $500.00 FOR JUST TWENTY FEET OF IT.
And you thought those grounding kits were expensive!
Last edited by meilers; 11-16-2003 at 10:00 PM.
11-16-2003, 11:01 PM
#50
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Originally posted by meilers
it is only $500.00 FOR JUST TWENTY FEET OF IT.
it is only $500.00 FOR JUST TWENTY FEET OF IT.
Some land just east of Miami, mebbe...???
How about a great big statue in New York harbor???
11-17-2003, 06:26 AM
#51
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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I'm not trying to continue the arguement here, but I added these to my car not looking for any HP gains for to get rid of the hesitation I was experiencing with my 04 and it definitely got rid of the hesitation. As proof, every Friday a few of the guys at work go out to Chipotle for lunch, if you have never had Chipotle I highly recomend it, and one of the guys who rides with me every week commented on how the car wasn't bucking anymore after I performed this mod. He had no idea I had done this and isn't into cars, so it's not like I had discussed the problem with him prior to doing the mod, but he still noticed the difference. Take that as you will, but it has definitely made a difference in the way my 04 runs.
11-17-2003, 08:44 AM
#52
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I have an email in to HKS (makers of the Circle Earth Kit) about this thread. I asked them to "prove" the wires were not snake oil. I will post their reply here. I am doubtful they will offer anything to help but one never knows....
I expect the standard sales pitch for the product and will be happily surprised if they reply with technical details.
I expect the standard sales pitch for the product and will be happily surprised if they reply with technical details.
11-17-2003, 11:39 AM
#53
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Well, for the record...
I did a couple installs this weekend. One was to add a K&N DI filter and seal the airbox to the engine bay wall. (The car came used with the box unattached to the snorkus, which was free-floating in the fender. No ram air scoop to be found...just a giant hole in front of the airbox.) The second was a grounding experiment.
I went to the local stereo shop and grabbed some gold loop connectors and some 8g sealed stereo cable. I went home, and disconnected the battery to reset the ECU. I crimped off two 12" lengths of cable, and installed them- the first from the negative battery terminal to the driver's side intake manifold grounding point, and the second from the passenger's side intake manifold grounding point to the passenger's side strut tower. I bolted up the battery, and went out for some high-RPM running to start to re-learn the ECU as per the recommendations over at projectwrx.com.
Yesterday was a little rough. At first, you could feel the ECU "learning", pulling boost and retarding timing where it just let it go before. At first, I almost mistook this for the surge I was noticing in power delivery before between 3K and 4500K, but I noticed it was just an initial drop. Acceleration was smoother across the board, all across the rev range and irreguardless of throttle position. No hesitation at all...just down on power while the ECU was relearning.
Today...wow. The car *pulls*. No flat spots in acceleration like before...the surge is gone. I'm digging the raw sound from the intake as well, and the filter helps too. But lights are brighter for sure, and the radio seems to be able to handle more volume...strange, but oh well. I noticed no difference in the starter; on occasion, the starter stumbles a bit when starting, and it did that after my break in drive yesterday. It's not any worse, and is fine, but not better.
Who knows? I'm happy. =)
I did a couple installs this weekend. One was to add a K&N DI filter and seal the airbox to the engine bay wall. (The car came used with the box unattached to the snorkus, which was free-floating in the fender. No ram air scoop to be found...just a giant hole in front of the airbox.) The second was a grounding experiment.
I went to the local stereo shop and grabbed some gold loop connectors and some 8g sealed stereo cable. I went home, and disconnected the battery to reset the ECU. I crimped off two 12" lengths of cable, and installed them- the first from the negative battery terminal to the driver's side intake manifold grounding point, and the second from the passenger's side intake manifold grounding point to the passenger's side strut tower. I bolted up the battery, and went out for some high-RPM running to start to re-learn the ECU as per the recommendations over at projectwrx.com.
Yesterday was a little rough. At first, you could feel the ECU "learning", pulling boost and retarding timing where it just let it go before. At first, I almost mistook this for the surge I was noticing in power delivery before between 3K and 4500K, but I noticed it was just an initial drop. Acceleration was smoother across the board, all across the rev range and irreguardless of throttle position. No hesitation at all...just down on power while the ECU was relearning.
Today...wow. The car *pulls*. No flat spots in acceleration like before...the surge is gone. I'm digging the raw sound from the intake as well, and the filter helps too. But lights are brighter for sure, and the radio seems to be able to handle more volume...strange, but oh well. I noticed no difference in the starter; on occasion, the starter stumbles a bit when starting, and it did that after my break in drive yesterday. It's not any worse, and is fine, but not better.
Who knows? I'm happy. =)
11-17-2003, 03:54 PM
#55
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Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
Have I got a bridge to sell YOU!!!!
Some land just east of Miami, mebbe...???
How about a great big statue in New York harbor???
Have I got a bridge to sell YOU!!!!
Some land just east of Miami, mebbe...???
How about a great big statue in New York harbor???
11-17-2003, 07:20 PM
#56
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Originally posted by Azjon
Man I wanted to read this whole thread. But there is way too much writings. Everyone here is writing an Essay!
Man I wanted to read this whole thread. But there is way too much writings. Everyone here is writing an Essay!
11-17-2003, 07:22 PM
#57
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Originally posted by meilers
Heh! Oh, I didn't BUY the Monster Cable... I sell it! To people who don't even BLINK at the price.
Heh! Oh, I didn't BUY the Monster Cable... I sell it! To people who don't even BLINK at the price.
11-17-2003, 08:59 PM
#58
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Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
So, does that make you a thief or an entrepreneur?
So, does that make you a thief or an entrepreneur?
My job is actually installing/testing the video game systems and programming the universal remote :-)
12-01-2003, 08:27 AM
#60
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Originally posted by links_courses
I have an email in to HKS (makers of the Circle Earth Kit) about this thread. I asked them to "prove" the wires were not snake oil. I will post their reply here. I am doubtful they will offer anything to help but one never knows....
I expect the standard sales pitch for the product and will be happily surprised if they reply with technical details.
I have an email in to HKS (makers of the Circle Earth Kit) about this thread. I asked them to "prove" the wires were not snake oil. I will post their reply here. I am doubtful they will offer anything to help but one never knows....
I expect the standard sales pitch for the product and will be happily surprised if they reply with technical details.
I certainly wouldn't buy a product from HKS with this lack of support.
Scott