meilers

With no intention of starting a flame war, or disrespect to those who have posted so far, I have to say I am a little skeptical about these claimed gains. Can anyone explain to me the actual electrical theory behind this?

I've been looking at a few of these "grounding kits" on various online shops (even VividRacing) and some of them claim an instant 10 HP. Considering I could spend $800 for new exhaust and barely get 9 HP (11 if I go for the K&N filter) this seems an outrageous claim. If having a car properly grounded would cause so much gain, why the heck wouldn't Subaru simply ground the car properly at the factory -- after all, didn't they design it from the bolts up?

Valve timing, air/fuel mixture, sensor management and a whole host of other characteristics of the engine are determined by the ECU and other DIGITAL devices; a power differential in the frame of your car is ANALOG. There's just no way that one would influence the other. What some of these grounding kits claim is equivalent to a Cobb reflash!

I can believe that the headlights would be marginally brighter (how would you determine this? Does anyone have an actual lumen meter?) and it would start faster -- those are analog systems which are indeed affected by a voltage differential. But smoother shifting? That is a CLUTCH, a MECHANICAL device!

These sales pitches and testimonials just remind me of those informecials where they claim you can paste some electrodes on your abs and in three weeks have a full washboard, without getting up from the couch.

Anyway, that's my rant So, can anyone with a degree in electrical engineering explain to me how grounding my frame a little better would give me 10 HP?

Br1t1shguy

I can end this whole debate right now, as we had the same one on ti.net and it ended the same way.

GROUNDING KITS CANNOT ADD PHYSICAL TORQUE OR HORSEPOWER.

If you understand the function of the ignition system in a gasoline combustion engine this would make sense to you.

The spark happens or it does not.

I'll repeat, the spark happens or it does not.

If it happens, it has done it's job, it has ignited a tiny bit of A/F mixture thus beginning the combustion that will produce the power.

Power in an internal combustion engine is derived WHOLLY from the creation of heat, gas, and energy that results from the combustion of air and fuel inside the cylinder. The spark only serves to kick of this process.

A stronger/bigger spark in an engine which can produce reliable spark at all power/rpm levels will do nothing. Saying that it can is akin to my saying that the ignitor in my barbeque can cook the food faster, it cant.

THE ONLY time ignition upgrades can net any benefits is in a very high compression high revving N/A motor or highly boosted FI application which has got to the point where the stock ignition system can no longer produce a reliable spark, thus creating missfire.

No missfire, no need to upgrade the ignition system. This includes CDI systems, plug wires, coils, etc etc.

Plug heat ranges do not factor into this as they are used simply to prevent detonation.

Thus, if nothing can be gained from creating a larger spark in a properly functioning ignition system, NO POWER CAN BE GAINED FROM GROUNDING KITS.

They are snake oil. If you buy one expecting power gains you are saying "i have no concept of the underlying physics of the internal combustion engine and will by anything from japan because its shiny and cool, im an idiot."

Note i said if you buy one expecting power gains. Feel free to buy one for bling factor, if you like engine bling more power to you.

meilers

HEH! Not quite as delicately as I tried to put it, but well said indeed.

The claims of smoother acceleration and brighter headlights also seem extremely doubtful. Once the car has started and is in motion, the engine's generator is creating all of the power; the battery is no longer the power source of the car, and the entire voltage differential would be different (though it would still all ground through the battery). Without actually affecting the air/fuel mixture, the spark timing (not power!) or the ECU settings, how would any car mod produce "smoother aceleration?" And headlights get their brightness from the amount of current flowing through a bulb filament -- is a better-grounded car supposed to be generating MORE electrical power than a stock car? Anyone here familliar with the First and Second Laws of thermodynamics?

If a more powerful spark could somehow generate more HP, you'd be better off spending that $110-$150 on an upgraded generator, battery and spark plugs.

So, another myth busted -- put "grounding kits" up there with the infamous "window sticker dyno boost" and "loud BOV" pseudo-mods. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

meilers

This actually makes perfect sense. All wires also act as antennas.

Uncle Scotty

Better grounding helps reduce electrical 'noise' and increases sensor resolution which does, indeed, make the Engine Management more efficient and precise which CAN and DOES increase horsepower and torque. This is a proven fact. This is why it works if done properly.
Go ahead and disconnect the stock grounding straps and see what happens....I guarantee you will put them right back where they were, or your car will run for ish if at all.
It has nothing to do with the wires being antennas.

meilers

If you disconnected the stock grounding straps, I'd be surprised if the car ran at all.

Trust me, I know tons about how a BADLY grounded car runs; I had a Volkswagen Rabbit which I jury-rigged to run a cassette deck (it didn't even have a hole for one in the dash, I had to cut one) and until the day I towed it to the junkyard it had electrical problems, including a cute one where the fuel pump would keep running even after the ignition was off, causing my battery to be dead as a stone in about 20 minutes.

What we're discussing here is if you can improve on the stock grounding of the car, and what affects this would have on the car overall. Adding 50+ feet of (twisted) wire to the car would indeed increase the "damping" of electrical noise (ironically, by adding *resistance*, not by increasing current flow) moderately.

Again, if you can demonstrate to me how ANALOG electrical interference affects DIGITAL data management systems, I'll be the first one in line to buy a grounding kit upgrade. It would be interesting to add an actual active surge surpressor and electrical filter to a car (I've got one between the wall and my computer right now) and see if it improved anything.

Br1t1shguy

No **** the car wont run if you disconnect the grounds. The grounds are there to ground the engine, electricity doesnt flow without a ground. But if you think slapping some shiny braided 4 gauge cable onto an engine that ran fine before will increase power, you obviously didnt pass a high school physics class.

The sensor noise arguement is bull****. Have you ever looked at the output map of the sensors on our cars? Have you done a before and after with bigger engine grounds to compare? No? Then how can you even say there is noise in the first place. The fact of the matter there isnt. Any noise in the system is a result of the alternator producing dirty power. Even if this had an affect on sensor resolution, which it doesnt, the only way to effectively clean it up would be with line conditioners etc.

And whats that about the engine management being more efficient? The engine management is DIGITAL. That's akin to me saying, well my computer is slow, so I'll use a 1 gauge power cable for it, that'll make it run much faster and smoother. Whatever dude, digital is 1's and 0's, on or off, thats how the computer works, that's how it drives the injectors and the ignition system.

Br1t1shguy

Of course they serve a purpose, but if you understood basic electrical concepts you'd understand that you could add 50 1 gauge grounds to the motor, and as long as it was properly grounded in the first place, which it is, would have absolutely no affect whatsoever on power output.

Uncle Scotty

IMHO, you are a fool.
I know what I'm talking about....you don't.
Electricity dosen't flow CURRENT flows. I guess you didn't know that one, did you?
I know Ohm's law's, you obviously do not.
I could type all night and it would get me nowhere with you, as you are obviously a dolt.

NEXT.....

Edit: I didn't say ANYTHING about the size of the grounding straps, just their number and proper placement.

Br1t1shguy

I dont really care about what you know, I care about the spread of misinformation.

Ohm's law simply state's V= IxR, or voltage equals current times resistance.

Rewritten its I = V/R, or current equalts voltage divided by resistance, which means the amount of current that flows through a circuit is dependent simply on it's electrical potential and it's resistance. The more resistance, the less current flows. "Electricity doesnt flow, current does" well neither is really correct, if you want to get into stupid symantics, charges flow. 1amp = 1 columb of charge flowing in a second. Anyway, my point is simple. Beleieve what you want, if it makes you sleep better at night to think that covering you're engine in grounds increases power, go ahead. But the fact remains, essentially nothing changes when you add those wires. Nothing. Physics says it does nothing, you say it does. Unless you know something the entire scientific community, car manufactures, professional race teams etc dont, it does nothing.

Uncle Scotty

Just because you want to be right does not mean you are, it just means that you want to be.
Just because you don't understand the principals involved in the application dosen't mean that they do not apply, it just that you don't understand what is really happening.
I cannot give you a dissertation, here, in the most elementary of the concepts but it has to do with with the total of difference of electrical potential between different points of the engine and vehicle body and the need for these differences to be as small as possible.
If this theory eludes you then I cannot help that.
I do understand it.

Do some more elementary study in electrical principals and leave us alone with your unwashed attitude.