Circle earth ground system Help
10-22-2003, 06:01 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Circle earth ground system Help
I just purchased this system from some random web site and received it with no directions of any kind and the box is completely Japanese. I emailed the guy and he told me that a professional should be putting it on and I shouldn't be doing it my self. And has yet to send me info, Which is a huge load of garbage? Anyway my question is, dose any one have installation info or pics for me to follow? it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
10-23-2003, 11:35 AM
#4
Sarcastic Jackass
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 622
Car Info: i drive a beater
I can't believe someone actually needs help with one of these... the best thing you can do is throw it in the garbage. IFyou notice a difference with this, all you've done is put a bandaid on a problem you'll eventually need to fix later.
Just looking up "Grounding mod" on google came back with
which is where i found http://www.dreamspeedonline.com/html...stallation.htm and http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...?threadid=1197 and http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...?threadid=2061
woo hoo!
Just looking up "Grounding mod" on google came back with
Results 1 - 10 of about 25,400. Search took 0.20 seconds
woo hoo!
10-24-2003, 09:43 AM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Grounding kits that make big differences may be masking other problems but this is generally the case with older cars with bad/dirty or missing grounds. These kits are not garbage though and can benefit new cars as well...I hate to use mags as a reference but many many new cars have been tested with a variety of ground kits and there is always some advantage in power (however slight it may be, 3 hp across the board is significant for running a few wires). Is the HKS kit worth it? Thats up to the buyer...the DIY'er can fab up a nice kit with minimal investment, when you get the HKS kit you're paying for their name and their packaging though you do get a very complete kit. Someone for the HKS kit as a gift for me for my FC, though I would have made it myself, I was pleased 
10-24-2003, 07:24 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
I paid $20 for the kit and it's a good high quality kit, just no directions. And it must make some difference because I work at a GM dealer ship and the ground wires on new vehicles are bigger gauge and their using more ground points in comparison to older vehicles. So once again only $20, didn't brake the bank with this mod. oh and I have an 04' with no present problems (only 4k on her), So I'm not trying to Band-Aid any problems. So I'm with Jon, I'm not expecting 80 extra HP at the wheels, but every little bit counts, Right?
10-24-2003, 08:32 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: a van down by the river
Posts: 164
Car Info: 03 Rex: HKS, Injen, Apexi, Perrin, Rota
new grounding kit coming out...
Perrin is really expanding their product lineup. Here's a clip from their website:
GROUNDING KIT
Perrin grounding kit will increase the electronic capabilities of your ignition system. The Perrin grounding kit will feature multiple wire connector to increase efficiency under your hood.
What sets us apart. These kits will be specific to your car. Precut to exact lengths and made of specific gauges of wire for the mounting points. Installation will be easy and can be done in under 10 minutes. Available in Black, Red, and Blue.
Coming soon...................
HERE is the link to that page
I've never heard of them doing much good for most peeps with minimal mods, it might help Alex with all his goodies... seriously though, if you had mucho mods and were worried about the electrical system being overloaded or shorting, then maybe a grounding kit would do you some good. later dudes, Ben
GROUNDING KIT
Perrin grounding kit will increase the electronic capabilities of your ignition system. The Perrin grounding kit will feature multiple wire connector to increase efficiency under your hood.
What sets us apart. These kits will be specific to your car. Precut to exact lengths and made of specific gauges of wire for the mounting points. Installation will be easy and can be done in under 10 minutes. Available in Black, Red, and Blue.
Coming soon...................
HERE is the link to that page
I've never heard of them doing much good for most peeps with minimal mods, it might help Alex with all his goodies... seriously though, if you had mucho mods and were worried about the electrical system being overloaded or shorting, then maybe a grounding kit would do you some good. later dudes, Ben
10-24-2003, 09:24 PM
#9
Registered User
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 18,369
Car Info: 1993/2000/2001 GF4 mostly red
Grounding kits are pretty simple really. You just want to run a wire from the negative terminal to various points around the engine bay. The chassis, the head, the block if possible, the firewall... just look for places where you can add one. The idea is to reduce the resistance between the spark plug wires and the negative battery terminal. Since the whole chassis is a grounding system, the more grounds you run the better. Be sure that you have good metal to metal contact though or you're wasting that wire.
10-25-2003, 08:32 AM
#10
Sarcastic Jackass
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 622
Car Info: i drive a beater
from a eletrical engineer friend of mine (grant that we were talking about the 1G legacy, but it still carries over):
_______________________________
It is absolutely correct that adding these extra grounding straps helps make sure that all sensors and in fact all electrical components have the same reference level for their signals. The car's chassis and engine block and almost all other metal parts serve as a ground bus to carry this reference all over the car. Some parts actually have a noticable resistance, so when current goes through them there is a voltage drop. This basically means that the device's reference voltage is a little higher. Many sensors also have very high impedance outputs, so they can be affected more.
So, yes, you help eliminate ground loops. And there is much empirical evidence that this helps the engine run more smoothly, at least at first. Some people report that the ECU seems to "learn around" the improvements after a week or two, negating the improvement.
But, it's not entirely clear precisely which signals benefit from it. Let me try to enumerate the potential beneficiaries:
Cam and crank angle sensors don't benefit too much, since their signals are variable reluctance spikes which don't really use a fixed reference anyway. That is to say, both sides of their signal go along wires to the ECU. Internally, the ECU does ground one side, but the "quality" of the signal isn't a big deal. The spikes are either there or not there.
The vehicle speed sensor isn't under the hood, but in any case, its signal is also either on or off, and nowhere in between, so the grounding improvement shouldn't matter there either. Naturally the same should hold for the various switches (idle switch, air conditioning switch, neutral switch, etc).
The injectors and ignition coil both have their grounds run back to their own ground pins on the ECU. So do the throttle position sensor, the pressure sensor, and the mass airflow sensor. So these guys don't really use the ground path through the chassis either.
The solenoids (like the idle air control valve, the pressure exchange solenoid, and the wastegate control solenoid) tend to ground through their respective control transistors in the ECU, as in a switched-ground system. So they don't use the chassis ground paths.
The coolant temperature sensor's ground wire is connected to the shield used for a few other signals, but it does connect directly to the ECU's sensor ground pin.
The knock sensor does ground through the engine block. So the "grounding mod" can clearly help improve the signal path from the knock sensor to the ECU. I don't have a clear understanding of how the ECU interprets the signal from the knock sensor, so I can't comment much on this. It's possible that this signal benefits from a clearer reference and it's possible that it doesn't.
The oxygen sensor doesn't have its own ground pin on the ECU, but its ground wire is connected to the ECU's ground wire. It's a 3-wire oxygen sensor. However, I do believe that this ground is only for the heater and not for the signal itself (4-wire sensors have a ground wire for the oxygen sensor signal).
Ah ha! Doing the grounding mod can help the oxygen sensor signal become clearer for sure! If I'm correct, the sensor grounds through the exhaust piping. This is sub-optimal. The exhaust develops oxidation on it which doesn't conduct well (unless you use stainless steel, but stainless itself is not a great conductor anyway). Furthermore, as the temperature of the exhaust piping changes, the resistance changes. This means sensor readings for the same air/fuel ratio can vary depending on the temperature.
Huh... I wonder... Would you get almost the same results as the grounding mod by just running a ground wire to the oxygen sensor itself? You could get some wire... 14 or 12 gauge ought to be fine... Strip the end of it and attach it to the sensor itself with a hose clamp. You could get asbestos-coated wire from the hardware store if you're concerned about the heat. It's expensive -- like a buck a foot -- but still... Then you could run that either to the ECU itself, to another sensor's ground, or maybe even just to a strut tower or another random bolt.
The ECU does get its learning feedback from the oxygen sensor and the knock sensor, and these two sensors in particular don't have direct ground paths back to the ECU. Wow.
_______________________________
It is absolutely correct that adding these extra grounding straps helps make sure that all sensors and in fact all electrical components have the same reference level for their signals. The car's chassis and engine block and almost all other metal parts serve as a ground bus to carry this reference all over the car. Some parts actually have a noticable resistance, so when current goes through them there is a voltage drop. This basically means that the device's reference voltage is a little higher. Many sensors also have very high impedance outputs, so they can be affected more.
So, yes, you help eliminate ground loops. And there is much empirical evidence that this helps the engine run more smoothly, at least at first. Some people report that the ECU seems to "learn around" the improvements after a week or two, negating the improvement.
But, it's not entirely clear precisely which signals benefit from it. Let me try to enumerate the potential beneficiaries:
Cam and crank angle sensors don't benefit too much, since their signals are variable reluctance spikes which don't really use a fixed reference anyway. That is to say, both sides of their signal go along wires to the ECU. Internally, the ECU does ground one side, but the "quality" of the signal isn't a big deal. The spikes are either there or not there.
The vehicle speed sensor isn't under the hood, but in any case, its signal is also either on or off, and nowhere in between, so the grounding improvement shouldn't matter there either. Naturally the same should hold for the various switches (idle switch, air conditioning switch, neutral switch, etc).
The injectors and ignition coil both have their grounds run back to their own ground pins on the ECU. So do the throttle position sensor, the pressure sensor, and the mass airflow sensor. So these guys don't really use the ground path through the chassis either.
The solenoids (like the idle air control valve, the pressure exchange solenoid, and the wastegate control solenoid) tend to ground through their respective control transistors in the ECU, as in a switched-ground system. So they don't use the chassis ground paths.
The coolant temperature sensor's ground wire is connected to the shield used for a few other signals, but it does connect directly to the ECU's sensor ground pin.
The knock sensor does ground through the engine block. So the "grounding mod" can clearly help improve the signal path from the knock sensor to the ECU. I don't have a clear understanding of how the ECU interprets the signal from the knock sensor, so I can't comment much on this. It's possible that this signal benefits from a clearer reference and it's possible that it doesn't.
The oxygen sensor doesn't have its own ground pin on the ECU, but its ground wire is connected to the ECU's ground wire. It's a 3-wire oxygen sensor. However, I do believe that this ground is only for the heater and not for the signal itself (4-wire sensors have a ground wire for the oxygen sensor signal).
Ah ha! Doing the grounding mod can help the oxygen sensor signal become clearer for sure! If I'm correct, the sensor grounds through the exhaust piping. This is sub-optimal. The exhaust develops oxidation on it which doesn't conduct well (unless you use stainless steel, but stainless itself is not a great conductor anyway). Furthermore, as the temperature of the exhaust piping changes, the resistance changes. This means sensor readings for the same air/fuel ratio can vary depending on the temperature.
Huh... I wonder... Would you get almost the same results as the grounding mod by just running a ground wire to the oxygen sensor itself? You could get some wire... 14 or 12 gauge ought to be fine... Strip the end of it and attach it to the sensor itself with a hose clamp. You could get asbestos-coated wire from the hardware store if you're concerned about the heat. It's expensive -- like a buck a foot -- but still... Then you could run that either to the ECU itself, to another sensor's ground, or maybe even just to a strut tower or another random bolt.
The ECU does get its learning feedback from the oxygen sensor and the knock sensor, and these two sensors in particular don't have direct ground paths back to the ECU. Wow.
Last edited by Jgrahn555; 10-25-2003 at 08:34 AM.
10-25-2003, 08:33 AM
#11
Sarcastic Jackass
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 622
Car Info: i drive a beater
he continues:
___________
As a nitpick, those big 2 or 4 gauge wires aren't actually grounding the engine... Generally, the engine block is considered to be the actual ground on a car. So it's considered more accurate to say that those straps are grounding the battery and the chassis. In reality it's all the same. The engine, the chassis, and any other metal part of the car, is part of the ground plane and the purpose of the factory ground straps is to make sure they really are well connected to each other.
You're exactly right in that they are important for the starter, alternator, and ignition. Think about the spark plugs -- they ground through the cylinder head. The alternator grounds through its bracket, and it generates up to 70 amperes that need to get around the car. The starter grounds through the transmission/engine, and its current needs to come from the battery.
From what I can see, the grounding mod shouldn't really affect ignition or charging too much, since there should already be a good enough ground path between the battery and the cylinder heads or battery terminal, and neither of those is really a noise- or level-sensitive signal.
But this raises a good point. Many people have said that using big fat wire is overkill for the grounding mod. They say you're wasting your money by using 8 gauge wire or whatever, since 10 or even 12 gauge would do for the currents used by the sensors. The problem is what happens should your factory ground strap fail. Without these extra grounding wires, your charging system would basically fail or work really badly. With these grounding wires, the alternator will try to charge through them. Try running 70 amps through a 12 gauge wire and you will cause a fire. That's why using heavy gauge is a good idea for this mod. In my opinion, anyway.
___________
As a nitpick, those big 2 or 4 gauge wires aren't actually grounding the engine... Generally, the engine block is considered to be the actual ground on a car. So it's considered more accurate to say that those straps are grounding the battery and the chassis. In reality it's all the same. The engine, the chassis, and any other metal part of the car, is part of the ground plane and the purpose of the factory ground straps is to make sure they really are well connected to each other.
You're exactly right in that they are important for the starter, alternator, and ignition. Think about the spark plugs -- they ground through the cylinder head. The alternator grounds through its bracket, and it generates up to 70 amperes that need to get around the car. The starter grounds through the transmission/engine, and its current needs to come from the battery.
From what I can see, the grounding mod shouldn't really affect ignition or charging too much, since there should already be a good enough ground path between the battery and the cylinder heads or battery terminal, and neither of those is really a noise- or level-sensitive signal.
But this raises a good point. Many people have said that using big fat wire is overkill for the grounding mod. They say you're wasting your money by using 8 gauge wire or whatever, since 10 or even 12 gauge would do for the currents used by the sensors. The problem is what happens should your factory ground strap fail. Without these extra grounding wires, your charging system would basically fail or work really badly. With these grounding wires, the alternator will try to charge through them. Try running 70 amps through a 12 gauge wire and you will cause a fire. That's why using heavy gauge is a good idea for this mod. In my opinion, anyway.
11-08-2003, 09:33 AM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 461
Car Info: 04 Java Black Sedan
I just did this mod this morning with some 8 gauge wire. Total cost was about $20. The whole resaon I did this mod was to try to get rid of some of the hesitation I get with me 04. I took it for a right after performing the mod and all seems well so far. We'll see if this changes in the coming weeks. For reference or diections I used some found on NASIOC forum by some guy who measured voltages and impedences between different points in te engine bay.
11-08-2003, 01:30 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: -----------------
Posts: 857
Car Info: .............................................................................
Whatever you do, DON'T use the strut top mounting bolts as your grounding points. They are probably the worst place to run a ground. Almost anywhere else is better.
11-08-2003, 04:23 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 461
Car Info: 04 Java Black Sedan
I ran most of them off of the intake manifold and the main engine ground to different pre-existing gound points. So far so good, excpet my damn tire went flat again. Second time this week.
