Built 2.4 liter motor, UTEC, now refuses to start
12-05-2004 | 10:28 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
this problem is alittle more extensive that weather or not a cold air increases hp
ok im going to give the problem symptoms, and the things i know are wrong... Im not going to post what i think it is untill later, but this is interesting!
---Heres my setup...
2.4 liter AXIS motor
built heads but stock cams
UTEC for EMS
perrin fuel rails
PE 800 cc injectors
wal fuel pump
garrett t4 turbo
custom turbo kit
custom intake
custom exhaust
custom IC pipes
blitz FMIC
---Here are some problems that ive been having that might be related...
Throttle position senor is failed
MAP sensor is failed
Idle air control valve is failed
The reason i know they have failed is because on my UTEC dashboard, there is a really funky MAP reading, either 0 or 130 percent throttle position, (depending on weather or not its plugged in), no coolant temp reading, and no air temp reading... ( i dont know why there is no air temp reading.)
---Heres the problem... ill go in chronological order.
the car started having a small intermittent(sp) problem. under WOT at about 10 psi boost, the car would misfire, and sputter, like its leaning out or going WAY too rich, allthough, the wideband reading was totally normal... runs varied from 10.8-11.6 AFRs
I changed my plugs because that is what i thought the problem was... i changed them from 7 coldness NGK iridiums, with resistors to 7 coldness plugs without resistors... the part numbers on the previous ones had a -11 on the end of them, that was the only difference...
The problem remained the same. it did not get any better, and the plugs did not make it any worse.
the plugs i pulled out were NOT bad. I pulled them and they did not look fouled or anything at all.
Later that day, the car had a small tendency to die after letting off the gas, on low RPM partial throttle which got increasingly worse as the day went on.
i parked my car home, and went to bed. the next morning, the car wouldnt start.... it would fire, and then die. fire and die, fire and die, in a very fast fashion. it was like one or 2 cylinders were firing, and then the car would not start. After a long long time of doing this, the car eventually would not even fire at all... there was absolutely NO spark being produced. I know that there is fuel being pumped, because after cranking for a long time, we could smell the fuel through the throttlebody. however i dont know if the car is pumping WAY too much fuel, and killing the chance for combustion, or what... I sat looking at the utec, tuning the idle areas in hopes to tune the problem away, hoping that maybe the ECU had just changed something randomly, but to no avail, i tried adding lots of fuel, and taking lots away, and everything inbetween, but the car would not start. infact it would not even fire at all! not even one cyl here and there... also i let the car sit for hours, thinking maybe i had really flooded it, but it still will not fire.
i have my ideas of what it might be... but please help, im hoping to get the thing back up and running tomorrow.
---Heres my setup...
2.4 liter AXIS motor
built heads but stock cams
UTEC for EMS
perrin fuel rails
PE 800 cc injectors
wal fuel pump
garrett t4 turbo
custom turbo kit
custom intake
custom exhaust
custom IC pipes
blitz FMIC
---Here are some problems that ive been having that might be related...
Throttle position senor is failed
MAP sensor is failed
Idle air control valve is failed
The reason i know they have failed is because on my UTEC dashboard, there is a really funky MAP reading, either 0 or 130 percent throttle position, (depending on weather or not its plugged in), no coolant temp reading, and no air temp reading... ( i dont know why there is no air temp reading.)
---Heres the problem... ill go in chronological order.
the car started having a small intermittent(sp) problem. under WOT at about 10 psi boost, the car would misfire, and sputter, like its leaning out or going WAY too rich, allthough, the wideband reading was totally normal... runs varied from 10.8-11.6 AFRs
I changed my plugs because that is what i thought the problem was... i changed them from 7 coldness NGK iridiums, with resistors to 7 coldness plugs without resistors... the part numbers on the previous ones had a -11 on the end of them, that was the only difference...
The problem remained the same. it did not get any better, and the plugs did not make it any worse.
the plugs i pulled out were NOT bad. I pulled them and they did not look fouled or anything at all.
Later that day, the car had a small tendency to die after letting off the gas, on low RPM partial throttle which got increasingly worse as the day went on.
i parked my car home, and went to bed. the next morning, the car wouldnt start.... it would fire, and then die. fire and die, fire and die, in a very fast fashion. it was like one or 2 cylinders were firing, and then the car would not start. After a long long time of doing this, the car eventually would not even fire at all... there was absolutely NO spark being produced. I know that there is fuel being pumped, because after cranking for a long time, we could smell the fuel through the throttlebody. however i dont know if the car is pumping WAY too much fuel, and killing the chance for combustion, or what... I sat looking at the utec, tuning the idle areas in hopes to tune the problem away, hoping that maybe the ECU had just changed something randomly, but to no avail, i tried adding lots of fuel, and taking lots away, and everything inbetween, but the car would not start. infact it would not even fire at all! not even one cyl here and there... also i let the car sit for hours, thinking maybe i had really flooded it, but it still will not fire.
i have my ideas of what it might be... but please help, im hoping to get the thing back up and running tomorrow.
12-06-2004 | 03:50 AM
#3
VIP Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 79
From: colorado
trouble shooting
By the way just a tip, your thread title is not going to attract the folks that can give you useful input on this problem -- it should have been something like--
"I need help with a no start problem"
We need a little more info to put your symptoms in context. What was going on a few days before the problems started showing up. How long was the car running okay on the UTEC setup / tune you had when the symptoms first showed up.
What were the last few things you did to the car before the problem showed up?
(I mean every thing -- did you wash it, hit some RR tracks really hard and jump the car -- work on it adding a stereo etc.)
If it has been running fine for a while as currently set up, something has changed.
Trouble shooting a problem like this involves, a systematic process of elimination.
First confirm the basics.
Clean your battery posts and connections --- ( I know they look fine but do it anyway you want to be absolutely sure of some basic facts)
With a volt meter confirm you have adequate battery voltage, so turn on the head lights and see what your battery voltage reads. Then take the same readings at the other end of the battery cables. (IE. with the voltage meter reading one probe on the ground screw the ground cable attaches to the body, and the other to the hot lead inside the main fuse box.
On my car, with everything off, including the ignition the voltage at the battery posts shows 12.66 V. When I turn on the ignition, and the head lights I get 11.8V.
My voltage from ground bolt to fuse box hot terminal is 12.3 V. The 12.66 vs 12.3 readings show the effects of connection and wire resistance to the cars electrical system.
Next clean and re-tighten all the ground straps that connect to the engine block and fire wall in the engine bay.
The odds of all your sensors going bad at the same time without a triggering event like the car getting struck by lightning, or you having someone arc welding a trailer hitch on , or giving someone a jump start and having a hook up error that resulted in a huge spark, is very unlikely.
My guess is that you have a connector that is loose on the UTEC or the ECU. So the next thing I would recommend is that you unplug and then re-seat each of the plugs on the ECU and the UTEC. Same goes for each of the sensors that are giving funky readings on the UTEC.
Larry
"I need help with a no start problem"
We need a little more info to put your symptoms in context. What was going on a few days before the problems started showing up. How long was the car running okay on the UTEC setup / tune you had when the symptoms first showed up.
What were the last few things you did to the car before the problem showed up?
(I mean every thing -- did you wash it, hit some RR tracks really hard and jump the car -- work on it adding a stereo etc.)
If it has been running fine for a while as currently set up, something has changed.
Trouble shooting a problem like this involves, a systematic process of elimination.
First confirm the basics.
Clean your battery posts and connections --- ( I know they look fine but do it anyway you want to be absolutely sure of some basic facts)
With a volt meter confirm you have adequate battery voltage, so turn on the head lights and see what your battery voltage reads. Then take the same readings at the other end of the battery cables. (IE. with the voltage meter reading one probe on the ground screw the ground cable attaches to the body, and the other to the hot lead inside the main fuse box.
On my car, with everything off, including the ignition the voltage at the battery posts shows 12.66 V. When I turn on the ignition, and the head lights I get 11.8V.
My voltage from ground bolt to fuse box hot terminal is 12.3 V. The 12.66 vs 12.3 readings show the effects of connection and wire resistance to the cars electrical system.
Next clean and re-tighten all the ground straps that connect to the engine block and fire wall in the engine bay.
The odds of all your sensors going bad at the same time without a triggering event like the car getting struck by lightning, or you having someone arc welding a trailer hitch on , or giving someone a jump start and having a hook up error that resulted in a huge spark, is very unlikely.
My guess is that you have a connector that is loose on the UTEC or the ECU. So the next thing I would recommend is that you unplug and then re-seat each of the plugs on the ECU and the UTEC. Same goes for each of the sensors that are giving funky readings on the UTEC.
Larry
Last edited by hotrod; 12-06-2004 at 03:54 AM.
12-06-2004 | 04:25 AM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
the problem that was taking place for a few days before was the sputtering, under full boost. also, the sensors have all 3 been bad for quite some time.
i had it all tuned for about 18psi, and was driving it quite frequently.
then i fried the ECU, (not sure how) car would not start.
replaced ecu
car ran well, but sometime after i noticed that the sensors were bad
maybe they went bad with the ECU...
the ECU fried while i was doing donuts in a parking lot of snow.
the things that happened before i the sputtering started was.... not much, the car had been sitting for a while... that might have been it... got a new ECU and trans all installed. someone also stole guages (EGT, Trans temp, oil pressure) they also stole the boost controller, and the turbo timer faces. these are all things that have happened in the most recent past, in reference to these problems.
i have not tested the votage on the battery, but, i have taken all the connectors off the utec, and off the ecu, also, i replaced the plugs right when the sputtering started. they made NO difference. sputtering continued, and got worse. i have also taken off all the possible problem plugs, and put them back inspecting all of them. i took the whole intake mani/TB setup the other night, and noticed nothing.
Here is some more info, that is usefull... (i feel like we are playing "where in the world is carmen sandiego") when i unplug the TPS, it reads 0% on the UTEC, when i plug it back in, it reads %130 which is one thing that makes me feel like its the sensor. i have not tried doing this with the other 2 sensors, but i will as well tomorrow.
ive been told that coils go bad, and that might be the cause of the no start condition. the sensors going bad, i have no idea what that might be... either way, both things will be figured out this week, and my car will be running really well. i just had my second full synthetic oilchange, and my second set of plugs, so im NOT going to let it go to waste for much longer.
i had it all tuned for about 18psi, and was driving it quite frequently.
then i fried the ECU, (not sure how) car would not start.
replaced ecu
car ran well, but sometime after i noticed that the sensors were bad
maybe they went bad with the ECU...
the ECU fried while i was doing donuts in a parking lot of snow.
the things that happened before i the sputtering started was.... not much, the car had been sitting for a while... that might have been it... got a new ECU and trans all installed. someone also stole guages (EGT, Trans temp, oil pressure) they also stole the boost controller, and the turbo timer faces. these are all things that have happened in the most recent past, in reference to these problems.
i have not tested the votage on the battery, but, i have taken all the connectors off the utec, and off the ecu, also, i replaced the plugs right when the sputtering started. they made NO difference. sputtering continued, and got worse. i have also taken off all the possible problem plugs, and put them back inspecting all of them. i took the whole intake mani/TB setup the other night, and noticed nothing.
Here is some more info, that is usefull... (i feel like we are playing "where in the world is carmen sandiego") when i unplug the TPS, it reads 0% on the UTEC, when i plug it back in, it reads %130 which is one thing that makes me feel like its the sensor. i have not tried doing this with the other 2 sensors, but i will as well tomorrow.
ive been told that coils go bad, and that might be the cause of the no start condition. the sensors going bad, i have no idea what that might be... either way, both things will be figured out this week, and my car will be running really well. i just had my second full synthetic oilchange, and my second set of plugs, so im NOT going to let it go to waste for much longer.
12-11-2004 | 01:12 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
If it is the sensors I would find out what has caused them to go bad it sounds like there is a serious eletric problem maybe a cooked ecu harness. What caused the ecu to die the first time? I know you said donuts but what shorted out the ecu? All the sensors have one thing in comman ecu. Heck maybe when your motor was put in some how the harness was routed wrong or pinched.
I know I'm kind of just shooting in the dark so please don't flame me just trying to help good luck
I know I'm kind of just shooting in the dark so please don't flame me just trying to help good luck
12-11-2004 | 09:58 AM
#6
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 168
From: Wilton,CT
Car Info: Sold My Stage 4+ Wa-Goon :(
I know it seems asinine.. why don't you replace the sensors.. they can be had for quite cheap at some local bone yards.. just test them before you leave..
Get a buddy and TRACE EVERY wire. I mean EVERYTHING. It takes roughly about three hours to do so with help. I had to do it a few months ago. I had the same issue when I installed my 2.2 way back when I went through my first motor. I Can't exactly say what it was, but I took the painstaking task at hand.. unclipped and reclipped every harness, wire, sanded all grounding points.. and the car started up. Why would the ecu have just 'fried'; did you drop something on it? Did water get into the foot well of your car?
-G
Get a buddy and TRACE EVERY wire. I mean EVERYTHING. It takes roughly about three hours to do so with help. I had to do it a few months ago. I had the same issue when I installed my 2.2 way back when I went through my first motor. I Can't exactly say what it was, but I took the painstaking task at hand.. unclipped and reclipped every harness, wire, sanded all grounding points.. and the car started up. Why would the ecu have just 'fried'; did you drop something on it? Did water get into the foot well of your car?
-G
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