mbquarts

iTrader: (10)

EJ20legacy = crucial uppipe **** j/k

I've never seen any one get so fired up about an uppipe before!

btw...subaru didn't put the pre-cat in the uppipe...CARB did.

testes1010

mmmm, i callin' bull **** .... the WRX will pass a sniffer test without a cat in the uppipe....btw it'll also pass majority of the sniffers w/ just the midpipe cat....

again, the STi does not have a cat in the uppipe...so BS on the CARB excuse...

mbquarts

iTrader: (10)

Well, it might not be CARB, but it is for any state that does cold start emmissions testing. If it was up to Subaru, the WRX would be catless b/c it is a much simpler design, more efficient and cheaper to manufacture.

meilers

EJ20Legacy, you need to turn down the personal attacks. Your histrionics aren't helping you make a point, and the anger spasms are making you do odd things -- such as somehow confuse WRX Rush and myself in the same post, and quote the same material over and over again out of context. If that's your personal style, so be it, but you're making it likely that an otherwise interesting thread will end up in the troll bin (along with yourself).

Let's review. In your vernacular, flex joints are for wussies that can't make or install a pipe, steel is better than iron at everything, we should ceramic-coat the surface of the earth to protect it from the sun, and Crucial makes God's Own Turbine Inlet.

I'm still not sold on your various attacks on flex joints. First you present the novel idea that Subaru engineers themselves don't trust their factories enough to make (or install) an up-pipe with precision, and thus they put in a flex joint to make up for slop. Considering that you entrust them with the engineering of the rest of the engine (and entire car) this seems a slippery slope -- at what point DO they trust themselves to make and install precision parts? I certainly hope they didn't apply their slack attitude to grinding my valves, centering my cylinder heads or machining the spark plug ports.

Then you make the argument of cost savings. This does actually have quite a bit of merit; certainly all automakers shave costs, even at the expense of safety (ahem, US auto industry, ahem) -- but again, this lacks credence. Once the pipe is engineered and the factory fab is done, the up-pipe is just a chunk of cast metal. Again, if they have the assembly-line precision to reliably coax 300+ HP out of a 2.5-liter motor and make it last 100,000 miles or more while putting out LEV-level exhaust, I doubt they'd drop the ball on something as crucial (heh, heh) as the turbine inlet.

I've got firsthand knowledge of how the WRX EJ20 exhaust system bolts together; I've even seen an engine out of the bay, hanging from the dolly. The turbo is pretty firmly mounted but it is not as rock-solid as you claim; the entire exhaust train is subject to torsional and vibrational forces. Why else would the engine and exhaust be mounted on nylon bushings?

So, if Subaru engineers and factory installers are NOT lazy or incompetent, why is there a flex joint? Thermal expansion is certainly an issue; carbon steel has an expansion rate of 7.8 micro-inches per degrees F from 70-degrees upwards, and this is not a linear scale; above 800 degress it expands even more. if an up-pipe is going to change shape over time, a flex would be a common way of handling this problem. Vibration is also an issue, especially at the flange ends. Why not give yourself an extra safety margin? Considering the Subaru reputation for sturdy, long-lived and well-engineered vehicles, I'd say safety and durability were the reasons for the flex joint.

"Testes," are indeed wrong on the catalytic convertor in the USDM WRX up-pipe; it is there for emissions, specifically cold-start emissions. Taking it out does alter the hydrocarbon content of the exhaust. A friend of mine in California failed a sniffer test when his up-pipe was swapped out (PDE, if you must know); the (Subaru fan!) tester told him to drive around on the highway in 3rd gear for a while and then come back, and when the engine was hot enough, he came back and barely passed. The STI does not have a cat, but it is also a very different engine, and has its own emissions methods for avoiding cold-start gas in the exhaust (including variable valve timing). The up-pipe cat is actually a piece of really remarkable engineering, and is an expensive platinum-ceramic substrate -- I'm sure if Subaru was as concerned with shaving cost as you claim they are, they would have left it out, given a choice. But wait, they can't engineer their way out of a paper bag!

As for the Iron vs. Steel issue -- yes, it is very common knowledge that steel resists heat better than iron for the same thickness of material; anyone who knows how to cook is aware of this, which is why I assumed you'd be clued in. A cast-iron up-pipe would indeed need to be quite a bit thicker than a steel one. However, cast-iron has a lot of positives going for it, setting aside the weight issue (which doesn't matter to anyone who's not a sponsored racer); for instance, the thermal expansion rate of grey cast iron is MUCH lower than any form of steel (only 5.8 microns per F) and the elasticity of the metal is greater; it also retains its shape and strength much further along towards the melting point, while steel tends to weaken. An iron up-pipe also has another attractive quality -- it is made out of the exact same material as the "hot" side of the turbo itself! Gosh, my turbo isn't made out of steel with ceramic coating, it must be worthless!

No one here is saying that the Crucial pipe is a piece of crap -- far from it. My concern with it would be bolting it to components which are more elastic, less precisely designed (perhaps) or subject to forces and stress. For someone such as myself, more concerned with safety and durability, the Crucial part might not be the right choice. If it is indeed true that none of their pipes have ever been returned, then congratulations on some superb work. However, they haven't been on the market long enough to be able to gauge long-term reliability, which is still a concern to a lot of Subaru owners who plan to own their car 10 years or more (such as myself).
Zealotry and personal attacks still don't make the case that the Crucial pipe is the *only* worthwhile turbine inlet on the market, nor do they invalidate the positive experiences others have had with other brands.

testes1010

what do you consider 'long-term reliability', hell the WRX hasn't been on our shores long enough to consider it a 'long-term reliable' car.....so in that case none of the uppipes on the market can be considered reliable in the long run..........for the 1yr or so the Crucial pipe has been on the market 'none had been returned' is saying alot......i doubt any of the other manufactures can say that....

i do plan on own my car for many years....maybe 10yrs, who knows....

EJ20Legacy

Thanks for the response, Meilers. Sorry I ragged on you. I felt as though you were bashing the company for no apparent reason. I see you have your convictions ^^^ as well. That's cool. I guess we'll just agree to disagree since I'm too lazy at this point to quote everything in your paragraph and give a counterpoint. I didn't mix you and WRX Rush up though... it's okay to quote two people in the same post... or apparently not .

Look, here's a short and sweet for you:

Crucial has a lifetime warranty. Not a single other pipe on the market offers that. IF for whatever reason the pipe fails 8 years from now [or whatever], it gets replaced. Maybe it will fail because it's solid instead of flex. Fortunately that's not a risk you have to bear. Crucial is taking that risk off of your hands completely.

I know from personal experience that I have seen and heard of many flex sections failing. Including factory ones. I also know from experience that I have seen and even had solid uppipes that leaked, both when first installed and after a period of time. But I also know that I have never heard of a Crucial uppipe having any problem of any kind.

With all of that said, and everything I've said in my other posts, I would like it to be very clear that I DO NOT have a Crucial uppipe on my car. I have a full set of headers with uppipe. If I had the stock manifold and stock turbo, there is no question which uppipe I would buy however. I have no vested interest in Crucial as a company. I'm running only their full gasket set and their cold thermostat. For the record: I have held the CR uppipe in my hands so I do personally know how it looks/feels/etc.


Just a quick response to the emissions concern:
And why would Subaru want a car to be classified as such? Oh yeah, tax breaks. Obviously putting a cat in an uppipe costs money, but not as much money as the company saves by lowering the emissions on its cars as a whole. Subaru has no vested interest in making its cars clean running, besides either meeting legal restrictions to sell its cars in certain countries, or meeting certain emissions points in order to get $$$ from the government.

If there was not a kickback from the US government, Subaru would have put that cat in uppipes around the world. But they didn't. It's US only.

Subaru wouldn't have raised the Outback 0.8 inches or whatever it was so they could classify it as a truck. Trucks have more lax emissions standards. As a car, the Outback got marginal emissions ratings. As a truck, it's wonderfully clean. Because of this, the ratings for the entire Subaru family of cars looks much better in the government's eyes and Subaru gets tax breaks.

It's ALWAYS about cutting costs.

...at any rate, I never mentioned the uppipe cat in terms of cutting costs, only the flex section. I know exactly why Subaru put a cat in the uppipe. The only mention I made of the cat in the uppipe was how retarded the idea of putting a cat pre-turbo is, and I think anybody would be very hardpressed to argue otherwise... I bet the Subaru engineers hated having to do it more than anybody

Unfortunately we're not driving Ferrari's here. Our cars don't have hand-built engines (well, most Subaru's don't). We have random Subaru's that knock on pump gas for no apparent reason. We see 5%+ differences in STOCK output on the same dyno, same day in the STI (5% is 15 hp). A couple tuners have remarked at how surprised they are to see such huge variation in stock cars... how some seem to have "strong" engines and others don't.

I'm not saying Subaru isn't good. I have been a die-hard fan since the mid 90's. But look, it's a $22,000 car. It's not built to the tolerances that you might hope for.

Unfortunately the engineers don't have control over what they make. The company tells them to design something within a certain set of parameters (the largest one being cost) and they do so. A company run entirely by engineers puts out cars like the Koeniggsegg. (I wonder if that has flex joints, LOL).

Jeremy

btw -- The only reason I have issue with Crucial being bashed is that it is a small company trying to make better products than anyone else. I really like supporting small companies. It doesn't hurt Helix or Perrin to have a few people saying, "their stuff is lame," but it can hurt a small company like Crucial. I also happen to think that Crucial does make a very good product though. On top of that, I think the uppipe is the best deal on the market. So...

WRX Rush

iTrader: (7)

Ouch, well you are listening to his opinion if you are saying that. Some people would beg the differ.

I think this thread has taken a way left turn on what it was supposed to be, it was supposed to be a 'what in your opinion is the best up-pipe' , now it has turned into EJ20Legacy talkin about shriveling penises and hard solid no flex up-pipes.

I will state and restate my opinion because that is what my knowledge is telling me, but when I read the other posts in this thread about up-pipes all I get is people expressing their opinions, and then one guy slamming all of them because he wants some guy to buy a crucial up-pipe.

Calm down everyone, it's gonna be alright, whether we have flex up pipes or solid up pipes. . . . .

I take a quote from the worlds favorite meth head "Can't we all just get along ?!" -Rodney King

Chilllll. . . .
Rush

EJ20Legacy

Ya'll didn't deserve the ***** thing... I was having fun, sorry 'bout that.

I feel like very little of what I posted was opinion though. You're more than welcome to take what I said how you will--and I know you're going to no matter what--but most of what I said was just fact. When I threw an opinion in those posts, it was [usually] prefaced by an "I feel," "I think," or an "IMHO"......

If something happens and solid uppipes are proven to be problematic, I will be the first in line to openly say, "I was wrong." It's hard to concede anything to another person and a lot of people are just incapable of doing it, but as long as you're not deceiving yourself as well, it's okay. (and by 'you' I mean 'people in general,' including myself, and not any specific person in this thread)

Jeremy


...I still can't believe I saw the "OEM has flex so aftermarket should, too" argument coming from people that replace nearly every part on their car with aftermarket ones that are designed in completely different ways . I concede that flex has its merits, but ^^ that ^^ argument does not hold water and is one of the craziest things I have ever heard...

silentbob343

LOL, after watching the Koenigsegg CC in the gumball rally I wouldn't be surprised if the did use flex joints. It broke down at least three time, but it did reach the highest top speed.

EJ20Legacy

Only info I could find about the WRC Subaru's exhaust... straight from Prodrive: ...couldn't find a good picture of the WRC engine ...

Exhaust system: Ceramic coated, single or double silencer assemblies with two motorsport catalytic converters

misterx

Here's one for you who believe the STi uppipe with its fex joint is superior.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showth...Ti+uppipe+leak

meilers

He mentions on the link that this was a refurbished pipe; it may have even come from a wrecked car. Still, an interesting link, as are the two polls the thread also links to.

Man, that is one ugly pipe! No wonder they put heat shields over it.

meilers

I've been looking as well, but I can't find one either. The ceramic coating is actually mandated -- since these cars dump raw gas into the exhaust (anti-lag system) all the exhaust parts have to be totally fireproof and able to withstand enormous heat. I also don't have to mention that WRC cars aren't exactly meant for a long and happy life weight-shaving is a huge goal of their design, but longevity is not when you can do a complete teardown of the car every 3 races.

I'd love to see those engine specs! I'll keep looking... I know I read a huge, detailed article that went over the entire engine part-by-part (including how the sodium-filled valves are made) some time ago, but I can't find it now.

EJ20Legacy

Hahaha. Good point


Out of curiosity, would a slip joint be counted as a flex section? I could see the WRC car putting a slip joint in the manifold and/or uppipe because of how extremely hot its exhaust parts get. You mentioned expansion isn't a linear scale w/ heat and the WRC exhaust is dang sure over 800*. It's probably inconel and it's probably glowing red most of the time B)...

...anyhoo, a slip joint wont fail over time like I have known flex sections to, but it also has downsides w/ possible leaks... I guess it sort of skirts the realm between flex and solid...

misterx

That's the point, - the pipe is poorly made. The flow characteristics have got to be affected by those awful welds.