Cats illegal to Remove???
07-28-2003, 09:47 AM
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,780
Car Info: Boosted Geo Prizm
Any tampering/removing of your factory installed catalytics is a federal offense. No if's, and's, or butt's.
Now when it comes to inspection time, some people have "hookups" to testing stations that will overlook the visual part and just do the sniffer test. We usually pass with either the factory downpipe back in place or having a properly designed hi-flow cat in our downpipe.
Now when it comes to inspection time, some people have "hookups" to testing stations that will overlook the visual part and just do the sniffer test. We usually pass with either the factory downpipe back in place or having a properly designed hi-flow cat in our downpipe.
07-28-2003, 12:05 PM
#5
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Originally posted by teiva-boy
Now when it comes to inspection time, some people have "hookups" to testing stations that will overlook the visual part and just do the sniffer test. We usually pass with either the factory downpipe back in place or having a properly designed hi-flow cat in our downpipe.
Now when it comes to inspection time, some people have "hookups" to testing stations that will overlook the visual part and just do the sniffer test. We usually pass with either the factory downpipe back in place or having a properly designed hi-flow cat in our downpipe.
I think CA emissions are tougher than VA emissions, but the high flow cat's pass inspection? Anything tricky in the tuning or assembly? Any cats that are better than others for this purpose? Any particular pipes to avoid? The Rex comes with three stock--does this create problems in removing and getting the thing to pass emissions later on?
Thanks.
07-28-2003, 07:00 PM
#6
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Ugh well how can all these aftermarket companies sell Parts for the street that Removes/Tampers with the factory Cats??I'm just curious... I've heard SO many different explainations.....and I haven't heard of anyone bieng prosecuted for this.....although I guess it really depends were you go to get inspected.....
07-28-2003, 07:01 PM
#7
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Location: Reno, NV
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Car Info: 1993/2000/2001 GF4 mostly red
All of those parts come with fine print disclaimers saying they are for off-highway use only. ANY modification of catalytic converters is illegal. Also, by removing your cats, you don't have a chance of passing emissions testing.
07-28-2003, 07:33 PM
#8
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Originally posted by BAN SUVS
...ANY modification of catalytic converters is illegal...
...ANY modification of catalytic converters is illegal...
What do they do about rebuilt cars, or replacement of parts on older cars? I imagine that it's illegal to SELL a car without cats, but I wonder about it being illegal to remove them. Not that I doubt it, but I would like to see how it's set up. Besides that, why don't cops just sit outside of tuner shops and pull people over as they leave?
Originally posted by BAN SUVS
...
Also, by removing your cats, you don't have a chance of passing emissions testing.
...
Also, by removing your cats, you don't have a chance of passing emissions testing.
07-28-2003, 07:47 PM
#9
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Originally posted by galactichero
Does anyone happen to know what statute makes it illegal? Specifically? I just want to know if I can find a way around it.
Does anyone happen to know what statute makes it illegal? Specifically? I just want to know if I can find a way around it.
WE'RE ALL CRIMINALS!!!! ... I think. I need to look at sec.s 7521, 7525, 7541 and 7542, along with a few others. QUICK!!! EVERYONE STOP MODIFYING YOUR CARS!!!
07-28-2003, 07:54 PM
#10
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Okay, this topic has had a number of replies from people who just simply don't know what they're talking about.
Below is a page from the EPA. Bottom line: It is illegal to remove, alter, replace, bend, spit on, or do anything else to your Cat. Do it if you like, but it is illegal.
This Part 1
FACT SHEET: EXHAUST SYSTEM REPAIR GUIDELINES
The EPA has prepared this fact sheet to answer some of the most commonly asked questions about the types of exhaust work a repair shop can legally perform. If you need any further information about the EPA's tampering policy, please call (202) 564-9240.
Question 1.
Under what conditions or circumstances can a catalytic converter be removed from a vehicle and a converter replacement pipe be installed?
Answer 1.
Under Federal Law, catalytic converters may not be removed and replaced with converter replacement pipes by any person. The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments even prohibit private individuals from installing converter replacement pipes on their own vehicles. Anyone who installs such pipes would violate section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act (Act).
In addition to federal law, forty-five out of the fifty States also have statutes or regulations which prohibit tampering with the pollution control equipment on motor vehicles or driving or selling such vehicles. Thus, vehicle owners who tamper with their own vehicles may be subject to substantial penalties under both Federal and State law.
Question 2.
Can I remove a converter from a vehicle that is used only for "off-road" driving?
Answer 2.
No. The tampering prohibition discussed in Answer 1 applies to this situation as well. The federal tampering prohibition pertains to "motor vehicles," which are defined by section 216(2) of the Act as "any self-propelled vehicle designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway. A light-duty vehicle manufacturer certifies en engine-chassis configuration as meeting the applicable emissions standards for motor vehicles manufactured in a given model year, and it is not legal for anyone to "de-certify" a motor vehicle for "off-road" use.
Question 3.
A vehicle that has had its engine replaced is brought into a muffler shop. The owner says the new engine is pre-1975 and the vehicle no longer needs a converter. Is it tampering to remove the converter?
Answer 3.
Yes. Again, the tampering prohibition in answer #1 applies. A motor vehicle must be maintained in a proper certified engine-chassis configuration. In the case of engine switching, the resulting engine-chassis configuration must be identical in all material respects to one that was certified by the manufacturer for the same model year as the chassis or newer. It is not legal for anyone to change a vehicle into one that matches an older configuration than was certified by the manufacturer. Thus, removing the converter would be a violation of the law.
Question 4.
If a vehicle is brought into a muffler converter and a replacement pipe already is installed, is it tampering to install a new replacement pipe?
Answer 4.
Yes. Section 203(a)(3)(B) makes it illegal for any person to sell or to install any part where a principal effect would be to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design of a vehicle's emission control system. A principal effect oś a replacement pipe is to defeat or bypass the catalytic converter system as it was designed by the manufacturer. It is, therefore, a prohibited act to install a replacement pipe in any situation. It is also a prohibited act to replace the entire exhaust pipe without replacing the catalytic converter. In addition, a repair facility should consult with the State to determine if the State has a similar policy towards this type of repair work or how State laws may affect the legality of its actions.
Question 5.
If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought to a muffler shop with the converter already removed by the owner, is it tampering to install a section of pipe in the space left vacant by the converters removal?
Answer 5.
Yes. The installation by muffler shop of a section of pipe in the void left where the vehicle owner removed the converter is considered by the Agency to be part of the act of tampering. It is a violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) for a vehicle owner to remove a converter from his own vehicle. Section 203(a)(3)(A) clearly prohibits all individuals from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design. If a repair facility completes, assists, or participated in any way in this act of tampering begun by someone else, it has also acted in violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act and by installing a defeat device has violated section 203(a)(3)(B).
Below is a page from the EPA. Bottom line: It is illegal to remove, alter, replace, bend, spit on, or do anything else to your Cat. Do it if you like, but it is illegal.
This Part 1
FACT SHEET: EXHAUST SYSTEM REPAIR GUIDELINES
The EPA has prepared this fact sheet to answer some of the most commonly asked questions about the types of exhaust work a repair shop can legally perform. If you need any further information about the EPA's tampering policy, please call (202) 564-9240.
Question 1.
Under what conditions or circumstances can a catalytic converter be removed from a vehicle and a converter replacement pipe be installed?
Answer 1.
Under Federal Law, catalytic converters may not be removed and replaced with converter replacement pipes by any person. The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments even prohibit private individuals from installing converter replacement pipes on their own vehicles. Anyone who installs such pipes would violate section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act (Act).
In addition to federal law, forty-five out of the fifty States also have statutes or regulations which prohibit tampering with the pollution control equipment on motor vehicles or driving or selling such vehicles. Thus, vehicle owners who tamper with their own vehicles may be subject to substantial penalties under both Federal and State law.
Question 2.
Can I remove a converter from a vehicle that is used only for "off-road" driving?
Answer 2.
No. The tampering prohibition discussed in Answer 1 applies to this situation as well. The federal tampering prohibition pertains to "motor vehicles," which are defined by section 216(2) of the Act as "any self-propelled vehicle designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway. A light-duty vehicle manufacturer certifies en engine-chassis configuration as meeting the applicable emissions standards for motor vehicles manufactured in a given model year, and it is not legal for anyone to "de-certify" a motor vehicle for "off-road" use.
Question 3.
A vehicle that has had its engine replaced is brought into a muffler shop. The owner says the new engine is pre-1975 and the vehicle no longer needs a converter. Is it tampering to remove the converter?
Answer 3.
Yes. Again, the tampering prohibition in answer #1 applies. A motor vehicle must be maintained in a proper certified engine-chassis configuration. In the case of engine switching, the resulting engine-chassis configuration must be identical in all material respects to one that was certified by the manufacturer for the same model year as the chassis or newer. It is not legal for anyone to change a vehicle into one that matches an older configuration than was certified by the manufacturer. Thus, removing the converter would be a violation of the law.
Question 4.
If a vehicle is brought into a muffler converter and a replacement pipe already is installed, is it tampering to install a new replacement pipe?
Answer 4.
Yes. Section 203(a)(3)(B) makes it illegal for any person to sell or to install any part where a principal effect would be to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design of a vehicle's emission control system. A principal effect oś a replacement pipe is to defeat or bypass the catalytic converter system as it was designed by the manufacturer. It is, therefore, a prohibited act to install a replacement pipe in any situation. It is also a prohibited act to replace the entire exhaust pipe without replacing the catalytic converter. In addition, a repair facility should consult with the State to determine if the State has a similar policy towards this type of repair work or how State laws may affect the legality of its actions.
Question 5.
If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought to a muffler shop with the converter already removed by the owner, is it tampering to install a section of pipe in the space left vacant by the converters removal?
Answer 5.
Yes. The installation by muffler shop of a section of pipe in the void left where the vehicle owner removed the converter is considered by the Agency to be part of the act of tampering. It is a violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) for a vehicle owner to remove a converter from his own vehicle. Section 203(a)(3)(A) clearly prohibits all individuals from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design. If a repair facility completes, assists, or participated in any way in this act of tampering begun by someone else, it has also acted in violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act and by installing a defeat device has violated section 203(a)(3)(B).
07-28-2003, 07:55 PM
#11
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Below is Part 2.
Question 6.
If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought into a muffler shop with no exhaust system past the exhaust manifold or headers, is it tampering to install a non-stock or dual exhaust system?
Answer 6.
Yes. The answer to Question 5 applies. The repair facility would be completing the act of tampering in this situation by manufacturing, installing and selling an emission control defeat device.
Question 7.
Is it tampering to install a dual exhaust system on a vehicle originally equipped with a single exhaust?
Answer 7.
Yes. The general rule is that a motor vehicle emission control system (which includes the exhaust configuration) may not be changed from an EPA certified configuration without subjecting the repair shop to liability for violating the federal tampering prohibition. The exhaust system configuration, including the location of the converters, and exhaust pipe diameter and length, are items specified by the manufacturers because engines and some of the associated emissions systems are generally affected by the exhaust system back pressure, which subsequently affects vehicle emissions. The installation of a dual exhaust system with two converters would, therefore, be considered tampering. The Agency will not, however, require a repair shop to restore a vehicle which has a non-stock dual exhaust system to a single exhaust configuration. A shop may, therefore, replace sections of pipes on such a system, except for that portion of the pipes where the original catalytic converter would have been located. It would not be considered tampering to install a dual exhaust system with two converters if the vehicle manufacturer certified an identical engine chassis configuration for the vehicle model year or newer that includes such an exhaust configuration.
Question 8.
Are there any general guidelines for muffler shops about the kind of exhaust work that can be legally performed on a previously tampered vehicle?
Answer 8.
As the answers to the previous questions indicate, the Agency's authority to enforce against tampering violations has been greatly expanded. Individuals are now prohibited from tampering. Repair shops, therefore, must now restore vehicles' exhaust systems to their original catalyst configuration if they work on that part of the exhaust system. The Agency will not pursue enforcement action against repair shops that perform repairs on one part of a vehicle's exhaust system where tampering has occurred in another part of the system. The Agency does require, however, that when working on a vehicle where the catalytic converter has been removed, the repair shop must replace the catalytic converter if the section of pipe where the original converter should have been, needs to be replaced. This would also include situations where the entire exhaust pipe is replaced. Repair shops must install a catalytic converter when replacing the entire exhaust pipe.
We urge you to approach repair work cautiously and to consult with State officials concerning applicable State law. We have enclosed a chart that briefly summarizes the issues discussed in this fact sheet for use by any repair shop.
You should also be aware of the installation requirements applicable to aftermarket catalytic converters which comply with our August 5, 1986 interim policy. A copy of these requirements can be obtained by calling the phone number listed at the beginning of this fact sheet.
Last Updated: June 15, 1999
Original Document can be found at (http://es.epa.gov/oeca/ore/aed/comp/jcomp/j11.html)
Question 6.
If a converter-equipped vehicle is brought into a muffler shop with no exhaust system past the exhaust manifold or headers, is it tampering to install a non-stock or dual exhaust system?
Answer 6.
Yes. The answer to Question 5 applies. The repair facility would be completing the act of tampering in this situation by manufacturing, installing and selling an emission control defeat device.
Question 7.
Is it tampering to install a dual exhaust system on a vehicle originally equipped with a single exhaust?
Answer 7.
Yes. The general rule is that a motor vehicle emission control system (which includes the exhaust configuration) may not be changed from an EPA certified configuration without subjecting the repair shop to liability for violating the federal tampering prohibition. The exhaust system configuration, including the location of the converters, and exhaust pipe diameter and length, are items specified by the manufacturers because engines and some of the associated emissions systems are generally affected by the exhaust system back pressure, which subsequently affects vehicle emissions. The installation of a dual exhaust system with two converters would, therefore, be considered tampering. The Agency will not, however, require a repair shop to restore a vehicle which has a non-stock dual exhaust system to a single exhaust configuration. A shop may, therefore, replace sections of pipes on such a system, except for that portion of the pipes where the original catalytic converter would have been located. It would not be considered tampering to install a dual exhaust system with two converters if the vehicle manufacturer certified an identical engine chassis configuration for the vehicle model year or newer that includes such an exhaust configuration.
Question 8.
Are there any general guidelines for muffler shops about the kind of exhaust work that can be legally performed on a previously tampered vehicle?
Answer 8.
As the answers to the previous questions indicate, the Agency's authority to enforce against tampering violations has been greatly expanded. Individuals are now prohibited from tampering. Repair shops, therefore, must now restore vehicles' exhaust systems to their original catalyst configuration if they work on that part of the exhaust system. The Agency will not pursue enforcement action against repair shops that perform repairs on one part of a vehicle's exhaust system where tampering has occurred in another part of the system. The Agency does require, however, that when working on a vehicle where the catalytic converter has been removed, the repair shop must replace the catalytic converter if the section of pipe where the original converter should have been, needs to be replaced. This would also include situations where the entire exhaust pipe is replaced. Repair shops must install a catalytic converter when replacing the entire exhaust pipe.
We urge you to approach repair work cautiously and to consult with State officials concerning applicable State law. We have enclosed a chart that briefly summarizes the issues discussed in this fact sheet for use by any repair shop.
You should also be aware of the installation requirements applicable to aftermarket catalytic converters which comply with our August 5, 1986 interim policy. A copy of these requirements can be obtained by calling the phone number listed at the beginning of this fact sheet.
Last Updated: June 15, 1999
Original Document can be found at (http://es.epa.gov/oeca/ore/aed/comp/jcomp/j11.html)
07-28-2003, 09:27 PM
#13
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Posts: n/a
Originally posted by OldGuy
Okay, this topic has had a number of replies from people who just simply don't know what they're talking about.
Below is a page from the EPA. Bottom line: It is illegal to remove, alter, replace, bend, spit on, or do anything else to your Cat. Do it if you like, but it is illegal.
Okay, this topic has had a number of replies from people who just simply don't know what they're talking about.
Below is a page from the EPA. Bottom line: It is illegal to remove, alter, replace, bend, spit on, or do anything else to your Cat. Do it if you like, but it is illegal.
Thankfully, at the moment, my car is bone stock. All of you people are screwed though... Wahdda ya gimme to keep me quiet?
07-28-2003, 09:57 PM
#14
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Heh well I don't think you'll get to much loot from these guys!!I see things in there that could be used to the advantage of tuners......But not a whole hell of alot.......The fact is a tuner has the same basic rights as a repair shop.....So they CAN legally replace your Exhaust..........It's just wierd how the guys at Cobb, Vishnu, or anybody else can SELL and INSTALL Catless uppipes downpipes ETC. without getting in trouble......You Don't see them getting Fines or thrown in the slammer.There tampering right??hhhmmmm just thinking
07-28-2003, 10:34 PM
#15
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Hey, the original question was whether it was illegal to remove the Cat.
The answer is yes.
Speeding, jaywalking, smoking before you're 21, and a whole list of things are illegal but people do them all the time. Enforcement is a whole different question.
If the question had been as to whether you can get away with removing a Cat, we'd be having a whole different discussion.
The answer is yes.
Speeding, jaywalking, smoking before you're 21, and a whole list of things are illegal but people do them all the time. Enforcement is a whole different question.
If the question had been as to whether you can get away with removing a Cat, we'd be having a whole different discussion.