Shifting...Am I too slow (old man style) Need advice
02-22-2004, 05:42 PM
#17
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The way i look at it is that when your up shifting, bliping the throttle isnt going to "keep you in the powerband." the only way to stay in the power band is to rev the engine higher and then shift so the car is still in the power band when you shift and the revs drop in the next gear. you could potentially step on the clutch, not let off the gas and shift at the same time. that would make things so you saved a lil bit of time by not having to take your foot off the gas and then have to put it back on. its not to smart to do this b/c it sends a huge shock through your power/drivetrain and wears your cluth out faster.
the amout of revs are determined by how fast the car is traveling. by blipping the throttle when the clutch is pressed down nothing is happening. its not going to make the wheels on the car go faster between shifts, and the speed of the wheels are what dictate engine speed and vise versa.
the amout of revs are determined by how fast the car is traveling. by blipping the throttle when the clutch is pressed down nothing is happening. its not going to make the wheels on the car go faster between shifts, and the speed of the wheels are what dictate engine speed and vise versa.
02-22-2004, 06:14 PM
#18
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Originally posted by jamester
I'm staying out of the shifting debate, but as for that "high pitched" sound.... isn't that the turbo spooling up????
That's a GOOD sound, my friend! =)
I'm staying out of the shifting debate, but as for that "high pitched" sound.... isn't that the turbo spooling up????
That's a GOOD sound, my friend! =)
No no no :-p I like the wiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrl sound of the turbo, I'm talking about how the stock engine doesn't sound beefy enough.... To me it sounds horrrible! But once you get an exhaust it sounds sick! Very mean! That's the sound I want but for now since it's all stock I can't see myself reving the engine or really taking it much above 3500rpm... :-p
Once I get my exhaust though, I am almost 100% sure that I will change my tune...eheheh (no pun intended)
-Nigel
02-22-2004, 06:15 PM
#19
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Here's the way I look at it. FWD and RWD cars are less straining on their trannies compared to AWD cars. While FWD and RWD car's tranny is only taking care of 2 wheels, AWD cars have to compensate for a lot more Gs from all 4 wheels. Thus double shifting on an AWD tranny isn't really adviceable. You'll just end up replacing the tranny sooner than you thought.
02-22-2004, 08:55 PM
#20
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NewShockerGuy ,
KmanRuffian is correct.
Just to make sure we are on the same page, upshifting means going from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3 and so on. Downshift means 5 to 4, 4 to 3, and so on. You can skip a gear going down (4 to 2 fex) but not generally not going up.
There is no reason to blip the throttle in an upshift. The whole reason for upshifting is to allow the engine to work at a lower rpm so you can get more speed from the same rpm range.
Generally racers upshift at the top the power band to maximise the available power range in the next gear. In a WRX this means changing at around 6000rpm. You want to have completed your shift before the engine falls too much so that the new gear and the engine match up and can accelerate smoothly. This is generally at least 1000 rpm and often more depending on the gear and what rpm you actually change at.
There is "racer" reason to blip the trottle on a downshift. Here the engine is going slower than the new gear because it was just using a higher gear. Blipping the throttle during the change gets it up to the rpm of the new lower gear driven by the speed of the car. This avoids the engine braking effect that happens as the new gear forces the engine to go faster. It's probably debatable how beneficial this technique really is but many swear by it. That said, it's a 9/10s+ technique and there is no reason to do it in normal or even "spirited" driving on public roads. You can go plenty fast without it. But if you want do a lot of track it's probably something to learn.
There may be a "racing" technique whereby you keep gas to the engine during an upshift to stop the revs falling off too much. Rev matching would be the reason I suppose but that would only seem necessary if you were shifting too slow to start with which sounds very un-racer like. Generally, you just shift and then apply throttle at the right time. Possibly racing clutches, which are very unforgiving, require this technique if you mistime it. I've never heard of it but I'm not a racer, just an old guy. Well 43 so not that old and I've done some autoX/rallyX so not completely not a racer.
Upshifting at 3000 rpm is fine for commuting and general driving but most of the reason from owing a WRX occurs between 3000 and 6000 rpm. So if you are changing like an "old guy" it's that rather than the speed of your changes I would guess. Unless of course you are still in the break-in period in which case you are doing the right thing.
I'm perplexed why you feel you need a new exhaust before you can enjoy your car properly but I'm not going to encourage anyone to drive faster than they ought to, want to or need to.
KmanRuffian is correct.
Just to make sure we are on the same page, upshifting means going from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3 and so on. Downshift means 5 to 4, 4 to 3, and so on. You can skip a gear going down (4 to 2 fex) but not generally not going up.
There is no reason to blip the throttle in an upshift. The whole reason for upshifting is to allow the engine to work at a lower rpm so you can get more speed from the same rpm range.
Generally racers upshift at the top the power band to maximise the available power range in the next gear. In a WRX this means changing at around 6000rpm. You want to have completed your shift before the engine falls too much so that the new gear and the engine match up and can accelerate smoothly. This is generally at least 1000 rpm and often more depending on the gear and what rpm you actually change at.
There is "racer" reason to blip the trottle on a downshift. Here the engine is going slower than the new gear because it was just using a higher gear. Blipping the throttle during the change gets it up to the rpm of the new lower gear driven by the speed of the car. This avoids the engine braking effect that happens as the new gear forces the engine to go faster. It's probably debatable how beneficial this technique really is but many swear by it. That said, it's a 9/10s+ technique and there is no reason to do it in normal or even "spirited" driving on public roads. You can go plenty fast without it. But if you want do a lot of track it's probably something to learn.
There may be a "racing" technique whereby you keep gas to the engine during an upshift to stop the revs falling off too much. Rev matching would be the reason I suppose but that would only seem necessary if you were shifting too slow to start with which sounds very un-racer like. Generally, you just shift and then apply throttle at the right time. Possibly racing clutches, which are very unforgiving, require this technique if you mistime it. I've never heard of it but I'm not a racer, just an old guy. Well 43 so not that old and I've done some autoX/rallyX so not completely not a racer.
Upshifting at 3000 rpm is fine for commuting and general driving but most of the reason from owing a WRX occurs between 3000 and 6000 rpm. So if you are changing like an "old guy" it's that rather than the speed of your changes I would guess. Unless of course you are still in the break-in period in which case you are doing the right thing.
I'm perplexed why you feel you need a new exhaust before you can enjoy your car properly but I'm not going to encourage anyone to drive faster than they ought to, want to or need to.
02-22-2004, 11:14 PM
#21
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gotwrx,
I've actually been concentrating on shifting and it seems to have improved, the rpms did not drop as much today driving home. I'm far outside of the break-in period..heheh I'm at 11,500 miles :-)
I mainly want an exhaust so I can hear the car...lol Right now it sounds like a normal car... funny thing is my gf has a VW wolfsburg edition jetta and that thing seems to "rumble" more than my rex...heheeh I don't really want to go any faster, just wanna hear that boxer engine rumble! :-)
-Nigel
I've actually been concentrating on shifting and it seems to have improved, the rpms did not drop as much today driving home. I'm far outside of the break-in period..heheh I'm at 11,500 miles :-)
I mainly want an exhaust so I can hear the car...lol Right now it sounds like a normal car... funny thing is my gf has a VW wolfsburg edition jetta and that thing seems to "rumble" more than my rex...heheeh I don't really want to go any faster, just wanna hear that boxer engine rumble! :-)
-Nigel
02-23-2004, 02:25 AM
#22
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Ok KmanRuffian, get into your car and in between the 1st to 2nd shift, get into neutral and try blipping the throttle to redline a few times and slam it into 2nd and mash the gas and you'll see the kind of kick in the a** your car gives you, it may not be a racing technique but this would be the only reason it would be used for.
I personally never drag like that, like i said in my 1st post: "in my brothers mx-6 turbo i shift so fast the blow off valve doesnt even go off, im back on the gas before the valve has time to open", i just slam it into gear.
I personally never drag like that, like i said in my 1st post: "in my brothers mx-6 turbo i shift so fast the blow off valve doesnt even go off, im back on the gas before the valve has time to open", i just slam it into gear.
02-23-2004, 05:01 PM
#25
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Originally posted by SHADO
Hehe sorry forgive me i am only 18
i dont know what else to call it, when i drag in my brother car every shift is like a semi split second ****, what else can i call it other then slamming it into gear? I just move it into gear as fast as i can.
Blipping the throttle in between up-shifts is called double clutching, this is done to keep the revs up in between shifts. I personally find no need to do it, in my brothers mx-6 turbo i shift so fast the blow off valve doesnt even go off, im back on the gas before the valve has time to open, unfortunately i cant do that in my subaru from 1st to 2nd without getting an ugly crunch cos subaru has a crappy synchro design.
Hehe sorry forgive me i am only 18
i dont know what else to call it, when i drag in my brother car every shift is like a semi split second ****, what else can i call it other then slamming it into gear? I just move it into gear as fast as i can. Blipping the throttle in between up-shifts is called double clutching, this is done to keep the revs up in between shifts. I personally find no need to do it, in my brothers mx-6 turbo i shift so fast the blow off valve doesnt even go off, im back on the gas before the valve has time to open, unfortunately i cant do that in my subaru from 1st to 2nd without getting an ugly crunch cos subaru has a crappy synchro design.
You know that grinding sound you hear when you try to shift too fast from 1st to second? Besides your synchros crying out in pain, that noise is grinding caused because your synchros can't match the speeds of the next gear/layshaft and your drivetrain fast enough. As for powershifting being a race technique... Not really. It is used in very few situations by particular cars but for the purposes of racing a road car like the WRX it will not make you faster. Take this situation for example:
Ok we are going from second to third. Because we are racing we are shifting at redline. So we come out of the top of second at redline, keep our foot on the gas between shifting and go into third with the engine near redline by dumping the clutch. Sure you will get a kick in the *** from it but what is happening is the clutch is slipping as the revs fall down to the appropriate level when you dump the clutch. This time spent slipping could be spent transferring power to the driveline. Sure if you keep the revs up and dump the clutch you get a greater impulse of force (force applied in a shorter period of time) but not a greater force overall. If you instead stay off the gas and go into gear, release the clutch and punch the gas, from the second you punch the gas all the power is going to the wheels because the clutch isn't slipping. See how it works? Since we are racing falling out of the powerband is not an issue because the revs do not drop that low when you shift at redline. In fact, power near redline is lower than power at around 5-6k rpm. Anyway it doesn't make you faster amigo. I would read that link I posted earlier in the thread for real though. It will help you out and your car will love you for it.
Oh and as much as I love the scooby snacks, I'm going to stop this now because I've offered my advice and information and I think from the rest of the thread anyone who has questions (including you) should be able to figure out what is correct. In the end though you can choose to believe whatever you want. No steel off my synchros...
Last edited by KmanRuffian; 02-23-2004 at 05:12 PM.
02-23-2004, 05:06 PM
#26
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I know what powershifting is, like you said keeping your foot on the gas while shifting, and no i never do it. I dont let my Subaru crunch anymore because i know the synchro's cant handle it, i double clutch on the 1st to 2nd change even when driving normally(by double clutching i mean letting it sit in neutral for a second for chaging to 2nd).
The reason i slam in gears in my brothers car is because it can take it, no crunches nothing.
The reason i slam in gears in my brothers car is because it can take it, no crunches nothing.
02-23-2004, 05:11 PM
#27
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Originally posted by SHADO
I know what powershifting is, like you said keeping your foot on the gas while shifting, and no i never do it. I dont let my Subaru crunch anymore because i know the synchro's cant handle it, i double clutch on the 1st to 2nd change even when driving normally(by double clutching i mean letting it sit in neutral for a second for chaging to 2nd).
The reason i slam in gears in my brothers car is because it can take it, no crunches nothing.
I know what powershifting is, like you said keeping your foot on the gas while shifting, and no i never do it. I dont let my Subaru crunch anymore because i know the synchro's cant handle it, i double clutch on the 1st to 2nd change even when driving normally(by double clutching i mean letting it sit in neutral for a second for chaging to 2nd).
The reason i slam in gears in my brothers car is because it can take it, no crunches nothing.
02-23-2004, 05:21 PM
#29
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I was under the impression that powershifting was shifting out of a gear without stepping in the clutch...but then again that sounds wrong. I think I might have read something about it so I'm sure if you do a search Shado you'll find all the differences between powershifting, double-clutching, etc...
And as far as double clutching is concerned, even though it's not really a necessary technique for everyday driving anymore, it is fun to do when you're downshifting. Double clutching was originally done to downshift because in the older cars without synchros you HAD to double clutch or you would get this horrible grindage noise. Not sure bout upshifting...and I don't mean to sound condescending but I really haven't heard about it except when I was talking to some 2 Fast 2 Furious Honda kids so I kind of associate a lot of the wrong driving jargon with 2F2F...cool movie, but BAAAAAD for the kids.
And as far as double clutching is concerned, even though it's not really a necessary technique for everyday driving anymore, it is fun to do when you're downshifting. Double clutching was originally done to downshift because in the older cars without synchros you HAD to double clutch or you would get this horrible grindage noise. Not sure bout upshifting...and I don't mean to sound condescending but I really haven't heard about it except when I was talking to some 2 Fast 2 Furious Honda kids so I kind of associate a lot of the wrong driving jargon with 2F2F...cool movie, but BAAAAAD for the kids.
Last edited by Wutzdatbehindu; 02-23-2004 at 05:24 PM.