The real scoop on WRX transmissions
10-19-2004, 02:12 PM
#31
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I'm curious about what speed people down shift into first at...almost all cars are designed to be barely rolling or stopped when shifting into 1st, even if they have syncros for it. If you down shift into 1st at 20+mph very often, expect your syncros to go out because that's a higher speed than the syncros were designed for...
10-19-2004, 02:31 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by jigga
I agree with you in the sense that a car should not be sold if the trans is unable to take the power that the engine dishes out.
With regard to clutch shudder, that and harsh engagements are very much a fact of life when you get those high-end clutches.
The transmissions of 2wd cars have a much easier time with regard to stress, simply because the excess power can be bled off in the form of wheelspin. When you have an awd transmission where both front and rear axles are tied together, wheelspin is not so easy to come by. The excess power has to go somewhere... If it aint through the tires are wheelspin, its the gears that eat the punishment. Such is the case with any awd car...Be it an EVO, an STi, a 911TT (owners of those cars won't ever launch their cars for you ... wonder why?), 3000GT VR4, etc. With enough launches, any transmission will eventually fail.
With regard to your statement about the C5 having power in every gear above 1000rpms, this is partly because it is a high displacement V8 engine (as I am sure you know), and the fact that it is normally aspirated, so there is no lag in power (the off-boost sensation). Also, those cars have super long 5th and 6th gears in order to provide the wonderful fuel economy that they are known for. Also, the massive torque of the engine allows the car the luxury of hopping from first to 4th without flinching..
Did you know that the Aston Martin DB7 Vantage with the V12 engine will actually accelerate cleanly from a stop in 4th gear?? All in a gear that will carry the car to around 140-150mph.. Thats displacement and low end torque for ya!
I agree that subaru should have provided synchros into every gear, but on the 02 models, I know that the only gear that had no synchronizer was reverse, and that was added later. The synchros that are in the other gears are on the weak side though, and it is possible to actually shift faster than they are willing to work.
Your original clutch failing at such a low milage was very unfortunate... It is documented though that the new replacement clutches that they are handing out under the TSB though will not hold as much power as the oringinal clutches that shuddered.. Whether this means anything to you really depends on what you want to do with your car... If you are going for the big whp numbers, then the first clutch was nice, but if staying with more modest whp numbers, the newer clutches worked fine, and were easier on the left leg as well... Especially in stop and go traffic. To Subaru, it was a perfect solution, since it would hold the ~160whp of the stock car.
With regard to clutch shudder, that and harsh engagements are very much a fact of life when you get those high-end clutches.
The transmissions of 2wd cars have a much easier time with regard to stress, simply because the excess power can be bled off in the form of wheelspin. When you have an awd transmission where both front and rear axles are tied together, wheelspin is not so easy to come by. The excess power has to go somewhere... If it aint through the tires are wheelspin, its the gears that eat the punishment. Such is the case with any awd car...Be it an EVO, an STi, a 911TT (owners of those cars won't ever launch their cars for you ... wonder why?), 3000GT VR4, etc. With enough launches, any transmission will eventually fail.
With regard to your statement about the C5 having power in every gear above 1000rpms, this is partly because it is a high displacement V8 engine (as I am sure you know), and the fact that it is normally aspirated, so there is no lag in power (the off-boost sensation). Also, those cars have super long 5th and 6th gears in order to provide the wonderful fuel economy that they are known for. Also, the massive torque of the engine allows the car the luxury of hopping from first to 4th without flinching..
Did you know that the Aston Martin DB7 Vantage with the V12 engine will actually accelerate cleanly from a stop in 4th gear?? All in a gear that will carry the car to around 140-150mph.. Thats displacement and low end torque for ya!
I agree that subaru should have provided synchros into every gear, but on the 02 models, I know that the only gear that had no synchronizer was reverse, and that was added later. The synchros that are in the other gears are on the weak side though, and it is possible to actually shift faster than they are willing to work.
Your original clutch failing at such a low milage was very unfortunate... It is documented though that the new replacement clutches that they are handing out under the TSB though will not hold as much power as the oringinal clutches that shuddered.. Whether this means anything to you really depends on what you want to do with your car... If you are going for the big whp numbers, then the first clutch was nice, but if staying with more modest whp numbers, the newer clutches worked fine, and were easier on the left leg as well... Especially in stop and go traffic. To Subaru, it was a perfect solution, since it would hold the ~160whp of the stock car.
10-19-2004, 03:22 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I'm curious about what speed people down shift into first at...almost all cars are designed to be barely rolling or stopped when shifting into 1st, even if they have syncros for it. If you down shift into 1st at 20+mph very often, expect your syncros to go out because that's a higher speed than the syncros were designed for...
Lube, shift style, upshift/downshift rpm, etc. all have an affect on synchro life. That would be good info to know. Also, a lot of people like to hold the shifter against the gear while slowing down until it pops in- since the synchro starts to spin the gear via friction, this will put extreme stress on the friction surface and will also cause premature wear.
Another thing that I have read in a lot of posts here (not yours
)- a lot of people are confusing grinding transmissions due to worn synchros with "weak" transmissions. It is no indication of how much power the trans can handle whatsoever. Pieces laying unde rthe car after a launch will tell how much it can handle . From my time browsing, I have seen quite a few legitimate transmission failures where they strip the teeth right off the gears. However- most of the complaints I see about "transmission failures" are just worn synchros- that is not a failure-, it is a worn part. Picture a synchro as any other friction/wear item- brakes or clutch- depending on how you drive, they will last forever or you will go through them constantly.That does not mean they couldn't have designed it with beefier friction surfaces and such on the synchros, but it does not mean transmission failure just because it grinds going into gear either.
Joe
10-19-2004, 04:33 PM
#34
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2004 WRX...... So what the hell is the use for 7000 RPM? I have 12k mile on my cay and I never had any problems with the tranny. I been to the track 3X and drop the clutch at 6k-7k. I've street race my car about 6-7time already also drop the clutch 6-7k no problem. I read lined my car 2-3X (and it hurts my heart).
I think these people that broke they're tranny does not know how to drive they're car, or maybe they' just plain abuse it or redlining it. . . . My clutch is shifting smooth and no problem whatsoever...except for the whole reverse thing (it doesn't go in sometimes), but I can live with it jus press the clutch again.
I think these people that broke they're tranny does not know how to drive they're car, or maybe they' just plain abuse it or redlining it. . . . My clutch is shifting smooth and no problem whatsoever...except for the whole reverse thing (it doesn't go in sometimes), but I can live with it jus press the clutch again.
10-19-2004, 04:49 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by My_Red_Suby
2004 WRX...... So what the hell is the use for 7000 RPM? I have 12k mile on my cay and I never had any problems with the tranny. I been to the track 3X and drop the clutch at 6k-7k. I've street race my car about 6-7time already also drop the clutch 6-7k no problem. I read lined my car 2-3X (and it hurts my heart).
I think these people that broke they're tranny does not know how to drive they're car, or maybe they' just plain abuse it or redlining it. . . . My clutch is shifting smooth and no problem whatsoever...except for the whole reverse thing (it doesn't go in sometimes), but I can live with it jus press the clutch again.
I think these people that broke they're tranny does not know how to drive they're car, or maybe they' just plain abuse it or redlining it. . . . My clutch is shifting smooth and no problem whatsoever...except for the whole reverse thing (it doesn't go in sometimes), but I can live with it jus press the clutch again.
. Exactly- while RPM and such will cause wear quicker than just driving like an old man, TECHNIQUE and STYLE play a major role in how well it holds up. Anyone can beat the **** out of anything, it takes skill to do the same and make it survive . This doesn't mean that the trans isn't weaker than most would like and that the synchros couldn't have been better or that it will last forever racing with the right technique- it just means that it will last "longer" than just beating on it. Hell, I PROMISE I can blow my trans before leaving the driveway if I wanted .Joe
Joe
10-22-2004, 06:17 AM
#36
2 cents
Keep your idle hands off the shifter! When you are done moving the gear lever to the desired gear HANDS OFF! Shifting into 1st on any Japanese car is interesting. When depressing the clutch, make it quick and all the way to the floor. Don't bang the shifter into gear(unless you're drag racing, even so be nice). Alot of these problems are found in forums for every car out there. Every AWD car has clutch judder especially when cold. There are metal particules in the clutch disc. If reverse is a pain shift into second, then try reverse while still holding the clutch. Okay these are just suggestions, I don't think I know everything, I've just seen alot of broken stuff. Now go out and enjoy the fact that we have cool cars
10-22-2004, 07:35 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by monsterboy
Keep your idle hands off the shifter! When you are done moving the gear lever to the desired gear HANDS OFF! Shifting into 1st on any Japanese car is interesting. When depressing the clutch, make it quick and all the way to the floor. Don't bang the shifter into gear(unless you're drag racing, even so be nice). Alot of these problems are found in forums for every car out there. Every AWD car has clutch judder especially when cold. There are metal particules in the clutch disc. If reverse is a pain shift into second, then try reverse while still holding the clutch. Okay these are just suggestions, I don't think I know everything, I've just seen alot of broken stuff. Now go out and enjoy the fact that we have cool cars
Another one that is dead on. Every car I have owned from Mustangs to 6 speed vettes (pre 97) and camaros and almost EVERYTHING in between (over 150 cars to date!!)- all were easier to go to second before reverse. It is a "well known" method for making reverse easier to get into. I just can't believe some people have that much trouble that they just think of it as a trans flaw.
Joe
Last edited by kwiktsi; 10-22-2004 at 07:41 AM.
10-22-2004, 07:41 AM
#38
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oh yeah- the clutch shudder is not typical of AWD cars, just pretty much any car with heavy duty clutches- ESPECIALLY ones that were not driven properly. If you want a performance car, you get a performance car- if you want a performance car that is as smooth a Cadillac, then you need to consider what you really need. clutch chatter is another common issue and a majority of time is it caused by people riding the clutch too much and creating hot spots (both heavy duty and cheapie clutches will do this if not driven properly) or slight warpage (just like brakes that get too hot). However like I said above- it is still a common issue with heavy clutches- especially if they are not broken and/or driven properly. Have you guys ever seen a tractor trailer taking off from a dead stop and start shaking violently? No THAT is severe clutch chatter .
Joe
.Joe
10-29-2004, 02:49 PM
#39
I just got my transmission fixed under warranty, third, fourth and fifth gear synchros and associated parts were replaced.
And to quell any myths you might have about the strength of the transmission in the WRX:
The Master Technician at the Subaru dealership, while talking in confidence with me, called the manual transmission in the WRX "weak" and said that not only are the synchro gears wearing out a problem, but the clutch shudder was occuring in almost all cars, gears were wearing prematurely on a regular basis, and the transmission in general can hardly handle the stock power of the car, and any modification for increased power surely will kill it. This is from a Master Technician working on Subarus for years.
And to quell any myths you might have about the strength of the transmission in the WRX:
The Master Technician at the Subaru dealership, while talking in confidence with me, called the manual transmission in the WRX "weak" and said that not only are the synchro gears wearing out a problem, but the clutch shudder was occuring in almost all cars, gears were wearing prematurely on a regular basis, and the transmission in general can hardly handle the stock power of the car, and any modification for increased power surely will kill it. This is from a Master Technician working on Subarus for years.
10-29-2004, 02:54 PM
#40
Originally Posted by monsterboy
Keep your idle hands off the shifter! When you are done moving the gear lever to the desired gear HANDS OFF! Shifting into 1st on any Japanese car is interesting. When depressing the clutch, make it quick and all the way to the floor. Don't bang the shifter into gear(unless you're drag racing, even so be nice). Alot of these problems are found in forums for every car out there. Every AWD car has clutch judder especially when cold. There are metal particules in the clutch disc. If reverse is a pain shift into second, then try reverse while still holding the clutch. Okay these are just suggestions, I don't think I know everything, I've just seen alot of broken stuff. Now go out and enjoy the fact that we have cool cars
It says in the owner's manual not to rest your hand on the shifter, that is true.
And to the other folks talking about transmission problems are always due to abuse: how do you account for the many people who are having problems? Are you saying that everyone who has a questionable clutch/transmission abused their car? I can't believe that line of reasoning, there's just too many folks seeing problems with this car, and why would there not be more Audi Quattro owners crying Shenanigans? Because those cars have good, quality parts on them.
11-04-2004, 12:11 AM
#41
hey it's just my 2 cents
I knew that general statement would make some noise, shouldn't have been so lazy and given more specifics. Here's the awd stuff I've been lucky enough to drive, if not own Porsche C4(98 I think), BMW 330xi, Audi A4 quattro, Audi TT, Porsche Turbo (2003) w/some mods (560 hp Racers Group did the mods I think). So some of you think I'm full of **** at this point. Granted the Porsches are the most noteworthy entries here. I drove all of these after they had been sitting. They all had clutch judder until the clutch warmed up. Forgot to include every Sube I've owned 98 RS, 02 WRX, and now on cold damp mornings, my STI. Clutch judder can be caused by alot of things, I'm chalking mine up to the stresses put on an awd drive clutch dictating its friction material. Plus I tend to walk the car out with hardly any throttle from a stop. This tends to exacerbate (just had to use that word) the condition. I'm sure some people got bad clutches, and some didn't.
12-15-2004, 08:23 AM
#42
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I autox with SCCA autox national champs from a year or two ago. They used to have a regular WRX and have moved up to the STi. They did pro-solo with their WRX. Pro-solo requires a dragstrip type launch and they totaled about 4000 dragstrip launches on their car. That is 4000 launches at 5000 rpm and they never had a tranny problem. They even did all that on the stock clutch.
Moral of the story...anyone who has had tranny problems with a stock WRX most likely is a shabby driver. If a WRX tranny can hold up for 4000 launches then it can take alot. You just have to slip your clutch more.
On top of that, my local dealer who prep's the national champ's car says the only tranny failures they have seen were all driver induced. Usually because the idiot dropped the clutch instead of slipping it.
BE NICE TO YOUR TRANNY AND IT WILL BE NICE BACK
Moral of the story...anyone who has had tranny problems with a stock WRX most likely is a shabby driver. If a WRX tranny can hold up for 4000 launches then it can take alot. You just have to slip your clutch more.
On top of that, my local dealer who prep's the national champ's car says the only tranny failures they have seen were all driver induced. Usually because the idiot dropped the clutch instead of slipping it.
BE NICE TO YOUR TRANNY AND IT WILL BE NICE BACK
12-15-2004, 09:35 AM
#43
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I currently have between 300-340horse power and have for 15000 mile I dont expect my tranny to last forever but so far so good. Oh, and I drive it like I stole it. Which makes me wonder why am I replacing the short block before the tranny.
01-09-2005, 12:20 PM
#45
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my tranny just broke yesturday. Im not making the most WHP. but 237 on the street and I like to drive it hard. I have 33k on the car the car has seen 3 launches all in stock form. now since the car has been modded it hasnt been dropped or slipped or drag raced from a stop EVER. beasue I was worried about breaking the trans. My trans let go in 2 gear. didnt come from abusive shifting, clucth drops, burnouts or anyof that. reving out second gear and it just let go. after that dredded pop, it sounded like a bunch of rocks beeing shaken up in a tin can as the ar slowed down to a stop. Im not saying this goes for everyong posting in here, I am just saying that most people talking about broken trannies probably havnt broken one yet. I know of a bunch of people who have broken wrx trannys. some in stock from others modded. There have been so many different circumstances where people have broken these things, its just not fair to say its drivers error. Up until the release of the WRX state side, followed by the modification frenzy that followed I havnt ever heard of another car breaking trannys like this. look at all the DSMs that have been hauling *** all these years amongst other AWD cars making high TQ numbers. By saying its drivers error implies that only subaru drivers are ****ty drivers if no one else is breaking their other AWD transmissions. As someone else pointed out you dont hear them crying shennanigans. The fact is that subaru nickle and dimed on some things to bring the WRX here and make it affordable and marketable to all the subaru community which was typically my grandfther before we got a real WRX here stateside. some one was talking about 4000+launches. on a stock clutch...well not healthy but if that car was only a stock car or only mildy modified from the 6-7k RPM launches your going to just get wheel spin and go. although there is an initial shock to your drive train there still not that much torque going through that trans after its moving.