brucelee

iTrader: (6)

Well, we're not talking about Rallying, are we? No, we're not.


We're talking about a road course and 1/4 mile speed as we'll be doing both... And don't give me the "It's all about the driver in the 1/4 mile" cuz it's not. Sure drivers have a lot to give but if both drivers are equally experienced then it goes up to which car is faster.

On a track day I would love to watch any of you take a Subaru 360 around the track while I take my Impreza and we'll race, lets see who wins. We can bring the most experienced driver you can find and we'll race it out and then when I win you'll all think I'm the worlds best driver because my car ends up being faster.


How about this time you don't avoid the above comparison with an "Oh dear" and actually explain to me how an experienced driver could put down a faster lap me in a 20 horse power car VS someone like me in a 350hp Subaru that is almost effortless to drive.

The car def matters, maybe not in the original comparison as the cars are very much alike so it will def depend on driver, I'm just here to make a point that it does depend on what car you drive.

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

PS I have a German drivers lic! It's not that it was so hard, it's that it cost a lot of money!!!! Def way more involved than our lame *** drivers test

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, and what if that Corvette was driven by someone of equal driving ability as the 195hp BMW? Obviously your statement is true when people that don't know how to drive fast cars go out to the track... It doesn't mean anything, just that the corvette driver sucked. That's where you're right, but there are too many variables to be able to say that cars dont make a difference.

Jacob, as much as you want to disagree with and me you, we're both right because cars matter, and drivers matter... Sometimes more so in one dept than the other. You can't just say (which is what you're basically saying) that you can take any two cars out to the track and that the faster driver will win no matter what, and my argument is that you're wrong, cars def do make a difference, especially when drivers are evenly matched.

The cars I originally posted about will be pretty close, although I think my subie is more forgiving and a tad quicker around the corners. I'm not sure about the 1/4 mile though... I was kind of hoping someone would post up what a stock G37S does on the 1/4 track and with what kind of trap speeds?

I'm pretty confident than I can beat him at THILL. He has 5 T-Hill days under his belt and I have 4 with the both of us at the last/most recent track day there.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

I believe we are talking about operating a machine in a competitive manner. You might argue that a different set of shocks or an air intake might seal the deal for a winner on a rally course too... Or does the car only make a difference on tarmac?

Didn't you watch the Top Gear where two of them (don't remember) drag raced against each other in succession, switching cars and the same driver won both races? that's just one example, but there are lots out there.

Why would you put forth another ridiculous scenario that pushes the boundaries past the limits of what we are talking about in order to "prove your point?" Do you think you would see a Subaru 360 at a race track or outside of a museum? Why not offer a comparison that could actually happen? To that end, and ironically, I have a dream of getting my 1993 Subaru Justy DL repaired and fit enough to be safe on a road course. If that day happens, I will gladly meet you at a track and have a friendly comparison of lap times. Each time I go to a race track I am held up by cars that have more power and equal or better handling, so each time I take a car out with half the power of the one before. My MR2 had 140ish hp and the Justy is rated at 73 so that's about right.

That was me that said "oh dear" and it was in no way to avoid the comparison but just really that it wasn't worth it to get into a semantic battle with you so that you could create a virtual world where you are correct or whatever you are trying to do here. I posted a video that shows how a good driver can easily outpace not-so-good drivers with a substantially underclassed vehicle and you come back with a Subaru 360 vs. an STi? This shows where you are at with this "discussion" and that there is no point with continuing it.

Do you think that an E30 M3 and a Porsche GT3, new Z06, even the Cayman, are equally classed? Did you watch the video? How do you not see what some of us are trying to say?

No, the better driver will turn the faster laps. I will concede that if you put of some sort of retarded comparison between a golf cart and a Ferrari FXX then yes, maybe in that fairytale case the car could possibly make a difference.

There are very rare situations where a car could make the difference for someone but in most cases, in real life on real race tracks, the car makes no difference whatsoever. I feel like I shouldn't have to clarify that, and it is this territory of a discussion that makes it seriously not worth while. I was trying to help, and now it's my "idea" vs yours and shoot - now you just told me that "I want to disagree with you" so that further invalidates my statements right? OH DEAR.

Yes, in that absolutely impossible scenario where two drivers would be equal, the car would make a difference. Since that could never ever ever ever ever happen unless we are talking about robot drivers, the better driver will turn the faster laps, "NEARLY" regardless of vehicle. That "nearly" was just for you.

You are talking about some non-existent scenario where drivers are equal. I am talking about real life, real tracks, real drivers. Maybe that's the problem here.

So that's it huh. I have no point beyond my desire to disagree with you? That's ridiculous, Daniel.

Drivers are incredibly rarely evenly matched. We see this in races sometimes and maybe, just maybe, a difference in a car could make a difference in the outcome. Who cares when this is so outside of what you would experience in reality as a hobbyist driver? Not me, for one.

Cool. Sounds like a fun day. There is logic in the idea of switching cars/drivers and making a comparison. Saying that you think your car will be quicker around the corners is like saying maybe all kinds of things might happen. What's the point? What if he is really good at diving into corners but not good with follow-through? What if you can take a tiny bit more of a risk in a turn than he has due to your experiences with taking cars past the limit? IN ANY OF THOSE CASES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CARS WILL BE ERASED.

However, all of this will be clear once you are there and you swap cars and such. It will be really cool to see what happens there. IMHO, familiarity with the individual vehicles and the track will be the biggest factor here, regardless of the spec or modifications of the cars. In other words, the person who is more effective at getting their car around the track quickly will turn the faster laps. Which is another way to say, the better driver will turn the faster laps.

Cool - sounds like a seriously fun time. Hope you have a blast out there.

Any further discussion of this should probably occur over pizza and beer (or maybe soda hahaha). I am not "angry or in a bad mood" and I am not even wearing panties. Initially I was trying to help. Now it's just doing laps in an argument and I am not a good driver in that arena..

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

Okay Okay, we're both pushing it now, so lets agree to disagree although I agree with almost everything you're saying so lets just drop it now so that it doesn't create more pages of debating back and forth and basically saying the same thing over and over.

So lets just assume that you are correct, only when talking in relative terms (equal cars, and not "Oh Dear's", lol). With that being said...


Would you come with me on a track day to instruct with me the whole time if I pay for a slot and you ride with me and can drive sometimes to show me things. I'm serious, like what if it happened on a weekday which is most likely since weekends are hard to get and are expensive. Prolly at T-Hill. I'd buy you lunch and drive you up there with me of course. If you're really confident that you''re a good instructor then I believe you, which is weird since I wouldn't believe most people when they argue the same rhetoric something about you makes you more believable, I don't know why??? Maybe it's because you're so polite and generous (hook @ trance!) and are very well spoken/written? I dunno, but I believe you and that's why the offer stands. I just need to scrape together some dough and get a day off and planned. I can give you like 2 months notice.

Anyway, back to 1/4 mile times. What are the factory specs for the G37S manual in the 1/4 mile? What's the STi's claimed 1/4 mile?

I wish I could switch to google and look it up but this phone sux and I can only have one window open at once or it closes all my widows and I have to restart! AGRRRRG! Thanks for info, and if there's info can you please copy and paste and text?! That would be AWSOME!!

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

PS: I'm VERY sorry for my grammar and spelling!!! This keyboard touch screen is NOT made for people with big fingers!!! I cant wait to get home to use my real computer!

hwob90

iTrader: (24)

Car and Driver posted G37s 13.9 at 103 mph

Road and Track 2007 STi at 13.6 at 99.6

McLovinMyWRX

iTrader: (1)

hate to beat a dead horse, but i thought i'd give my $.02...

I definitely see where wombat is coming from (and even got a chance to watch the video) and agree that the driver plays makes up about 75% of it, but I can't seem to get past the idea that a better handling car also plays a significant factor. yes in the video, the m3 was able to overtake some beastly cars, but IMO those were some **** poor drivers in the corvette, gt3, etc. but could you do the same in a 180 hp mkiv gti? i highly doubt it.

i mean if you have two fairly experienced drivers, one being slightly more advanced than the other and the slightly more advanced driver is driving a mkIV gti (or any vehicle with terrible understeer for that matter) and the other driving an rx-8 (for the sake of argument). with as much understeer the fwd gti has, and boy do i know having owned one for 4 years, i just don't see how it is possible for it to out run the rx-8. if a car is physically limited by understeer and can't go through those corners as fast as an rx-8 and has slower trap speed, how would the gti be able to make up ground? reason i bring up the rx-8 is because i have driven my friend's rx-8 and consider it to be a very easy car to drive, in terms of handling, that even a competent driver would have no problem handling a gti on the track.

sorry if i missed pieces of your argument, wombat. there was a lot to digest in this discussion

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

That's my argument but they are sticking to their guns and that's why I said to agree to disagree since we aren't going to agree on this until something is done to prove either side. Myth Busters?

McLovinMyWRX

iTrader: (1)

yes, i think this would make for an excellent episode of mythbusters!

AlanarchySTI

I`m still looking forward to these results.

slugrx

iTrader: (12)

pm'ed you brucelee

stan_t

iTrader: (5)

I had an instructor at Thunderhill who usually drives Porsches there. His main car's engine blew up, so he brought his backup "racecar" pictured below. He got this car for free, gutted the interior, cut a wind or 2 off the stock springs to increase rates and fitted the r-compounds off of his Porsche to the stock wheels (they barely fit). The car was totally stock otherwise and put down 120 crank horse power at the most on a good day.

This was the scariest ride I've had at Thunderhill, and I've ridden in a dozen of cars on that track piloted by professional drivers, half of them at stock STi power and above. We went out when A and B groups were out there and he passed everyone very quickly and easily. This was a Subaru event, there were lots of very nice cars out there.



Look up "filthy escort" on youtube. The guy's name is Trekker. The car does not matter, driver is all that matters. Tires are very important too.

Stan

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

R Compound tires VS regular tires and the driver no longer matters. By adding the R compound tires automatically negates the crappyness of the car. Unless every car out there was on R compounds, otherwise the tires make a HUUUUUGE diff here.

kyoung05

iTrader: (2)

FWIW, I looked up "filthy escort" on Google (rather than youTube) - the results are not car related.