wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Yes, that is called a RACE and you need a competition license to participate. When you are RACING and you have a competition license, it's probably okay to say you are racing the other cars involved in the race and compare times and stuff. Hope that helps.

This thread is about racing at a track day, which is not a race. Race tracks carry insurance that dictates that when it's not a race, there is no competing going on.

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

I can see what you're saying about drivers making the difference, so using your logic someone can get into a 1957 VW Beetle (a good driver) with a whopping 31 horse power and I can get into my STi and since he's a better driver he will beat my time at the track? So the car makes NO difference?


I think it's safe to say that a 31hp bug from the 50's will lose to a modern 300+hp STi...


Your logic would work if the cars were very similar and the drivers skill was one sided favoring one person...

rau

iTrader: (9)

If it's who I think it is, we were in the same car club. Ask him if he knows about mark and Oni-Moto

gh0st shad0w

iTrader: (9)

If you don't win Soggy will come back and give you crap for days. Is his suspension stock or modded? I own a G37S all stock and I can tell you the power takes a while to kick in. But when it does it is nice and smooth to redline.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Cool story. I have never been to a moto track day, so I cannot comment there. I have also seen people comparing lap times and such and not get ejected. But, why do something that you don't need to do that could easily get you ejected if a track official gets wind of it. I have seen people get a "talkin to" in drivers meetings for what looked like racing on the track.

People that are going there to gain driving prowess is who. I could see comparing your own lap times, and in two different cars as a basis for comparison - that is logical. I have been doing track days at Laguna, Sears and T-Hill since '01 though my last outing was in 2009. I do not feel that my driving is up to the level where it's worth timing myself, and have yet to time a single lap of the thousands of miles I have driven on tracks. Maybe I just enjoy driving as close to the limit as I can and improving my driving. Honestly I could give half a crap who is faster, and there have been very few times when I have been impressed with others' driving at these events. I know two people out of everyone I have ever personally met that I consider to be great drivers. Two. Most of the people I know do not drive as well as my wife.

We have had drastically different experiences, and that is okay. That being said, I cannot imagine someone putting together a track day aimed at people without competition licenses and not making it absolutely CLEAR that there would be no racing or competition of any kind. I would have to see that to believe it.

Most of my track days were with NASA, though I did join some smaller groups here and there, and was at EQ's track day in '09, but with my MR2. If you do a track day with NASA, you are doing a HPDE. The HPDE CCR's specifically state that these track days are non-competition events and they even go so far as to clarify that the word "sportsmanship" does not imply any form of competition if I remember right. The CCR's can be found here if anyone cares: http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/

Most of the track days I have been to, even in the early days, there were instructors on hand if you wanted but it was not specifically a driving school and if you wanted to get out on the track and not even talk to an instructor, that's fine. Usually if you are obviously having issues, they will track you down and offer assistance.

That info on Skip Barber is sweet! I really want to do that someday and I have loads to learn. I have heard nothing but great things from people who have done them.

I guess I should not have posted in here. I will keep that in mind next time. Was just waiting for furniture dudes to move some crap so I can lobotomize the office network, and thought I would put my comments into the discussion. I am a weird and unusual sort of driver. I feel that I learn something new about driving every single time I drive a car. I never ever take anything for granted. I always consider that there is a person on the other side of a blind corner, over the double yellow (I am often correct there which is scary), I would never, ever ever cross the double yellow because I feel that a good and conscientious driver never would. I love driving cars that people call "slow" much faster than other drivers drive "fast" cars. Most of my friends tell me that I am "such an awesome driver" and while that is cool to hear, I really do not agree. I am excellent at the mechanical aspects of operating a vehicle, but I am definitely not the best driver. I have lots to learn, and I feel that the day I think I am an awesome driver is the day to stop driving.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Oh dear...

Have a blast at your track day.

brucelee

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, there's always instructors that will ride with you and give you tips but I was more looking into taking a class with my wife where we sit down, get lectured and taught the basic principals... Then have the track broken down corner by corner and explained by someone. I don't know how Skip's is setup in terms of teaching, does anyone know if it is somewhat on par with what I described above? Or if you know of a school that would be a good match for my wife and I to take together.


If you guys drove around with my wife you'd probably die from jumping out of the car. She's REALLY scary to ride with. She doesn't understand the basic principals of how a car works and doesn't really think about the physics of how a car handles, especially one as heavy as hers. She relies greatly on her brakes and doesn't understand how that's not the right thing to do... I figure if she learns how things work that she'll become a safer driver because she'll learn what is right to do and what you shouldn't do, as well as learning how to turn, brake, and basically how to drive... lol. It's sad but true... I just hope that someone out there can help her become a better driver! Any help with finding a place is greatly appreciated.

dimsumboi

iTrader: (1)

aww dang aww dang. my bad. well anyways, good luck!

mcast

iTrader: (1)

bah.

Push the button, recieve bacon.

LGT Mark

iTrader: (5)

STI is easier to drive than the g37s imo, g37 is heavy, overheats, and has alot of understeer (stock). If both drivers are novice-medium, i think the stg.2 STI will be faster than a mildly modified g37s.

The car does matter, driver skill matters too. Car capabilities can compensate for lack of driver skill only so much. Passing an e92 M3 / lotus / corvette on the track is fun, but getting passed by a little car, learning their lines, and trying to keep up with them is more fun.

I think that having timing @ HPDE's is pretty essential to making progress. Otherwise how else do you know that the things you've tried / learned is making any impact? Not having timing may even hinder driving growth by not providing feedback for over driving corners. My fastest laps have often been the ones I didn't think were that fast / not pushing it hard.

I did the audi driving experience @ Infineon couple years ago, they sat us down and did some of the classroom things like how traction is affected by weight balance in turns, how to brake properly, etc. Then we went outside in the parking lot to do drills on cone courses. Then we ended our lesson on the track with some S5's, following the instructor around. You could try to give them a call, I'm sure the Skip Barber school at Laguna is simliar.

willow

iTrader: (3)

Very good and honest advice Wambatsauce. I think that is what HPDE should be. Self improvement and not competition.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Once you spend some time driving a momentum car, you will realize that the car, in fact, does not matter as your frustration builds when people in "faster, more capable cars" slow down for turns and power through the straights as they do. I am talking about being in a 1980 Celica and being held up by Vipers, Vettes and WRXs. Couldn't catch the Spec Miatas. Of my memories of the worst drivers I have seen at T-Hill, they were in a Ferrari 360 Modena and a '04 Z06. Both of those cars should have zero issues turning faster lap times than a 1980 Toyota Celica, as long as the driver is up to the task!

Sure, you can turn my comments into a BS semantic battle and say something like "what about a 1957 Beetle versus an STi" but, there are sometimes situations when a drastic difference like that doesn't even matter. It's also important to note that such a Beetle is not going to weigh much more than 1,000lbs while the STi is over 3x that much...

My last track day, I was being held up by cars with dyno sheets showing 2x my "factory rated output" of 138hp in whp figures. Cars that I personally feel that I could have turned faster laps than my own car, were in front of me and consistently getting the blue/yellow. If what you say were true, that situation would NEVER happen.

There were some cars that passed me in the straights several times, but by turn 4 I am on the bumper and turn 7 to 8 I was ahead again. If I drove hard (was on stock brakes/street tires) I could put enough distance between us that they did not reach turn 14 with enough time, and could not pass me in the front straight but at great expense to my tires and I still needed to drive back home. Anyway, how would this happen if the car matters so much? It would have been interesting to swap cars and see what happens, which is what I have gotten out of this thread. It would be cool if we could focus on that instead of everyone's whimsical ideas about what does and does not happen at a track day (since there are some very different views here, and it's not like what someone else says will erase the last few years of first-hand experience).

The car does not matter. The better driver will turn faster laps.

As far as timing @ and HPDE, that is strictly your opinion. I have never timed my laps because I still mess up turns and go back and try to do it better. I do not feel that my driving is up to the level where it even makes sense to time myself for the purpose of improvement. On top of that, it's still HARD to get a solid lap done at T-Hill without traffic and my cars I use on track do not have the power/weight to drag race people on the straights. When I get through several consecutive laps without making an error and get consistent with my line, timing will make sense.

Comments like yours and brucelee's are why I get bored and walk away from people comparing lap times and talking about "if they just had race rubber" and the folks that bring tubs of expensive race fuel for their personal street cars. UPGRADE YOURSELF, MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I spent a tank of 87 octane, and destroyed my rear tires and I had a BLAST. I also wasn't getting passed unless I was cooling down.

Spend that mod/race tire money on a driving school, buy a $2k Miata, and get out on a track and have some fun turning lap after lap. Unless useless BS discussions and *****-waving is what you are in it for. I am in it for the driving experience, and again, I could give half a crap what times YOU are turning.

Hope that helps.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Thanks. It's all about the self improvement - maybe I am missing that part of me where I need to feel better than everyone else haha.. I can't wait till the point where I get through 5 laps in a row feeling like I couldn't do any better. Then, it's time to time. I only made it to group 3 though in NASA HPDE, so maybe Group 4 is different, and I am sure other track organizations are different.

Bouncer

iTrader: (1)

Wellll According to Car and driver's VIR laptimes of the cars stock.........

The 09 STI was slower than the 09 g37... Stock....

It'll probably come down to tires, suspension, and driving.. Your extra HP will help - But the infinity is no slouch..

You will also note what a raging pile of suck the scoobs are on the track in stock form

*edit - i just read more of the thread and saw this was going to happen at an HPDE event? I will revise.. The winner will be absolutely random.. Just flip a coin.. It'd be easier Good luck with traffic!!

NorCalPaintball

iTrader: (2)

I would recommend first driving rotax or shifter karts before moving into the car realm. you just need to always think about momentum, and the "friction circle". go indoor karting or outdoor karting, get a membership somewhere... she'll be a good driver inside 1year. for good city driving, order goes signal, then input. not the other way around. =) i hate when people hit their brakes, turn into somewhere, and then throw on their signal... dumb, but a lot of people do this. <end rant> lol