What do you guys think of the Oakland-BART cop shooting?
07-02-2010, 12:29 PM
#31
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Given the history of what happened when the shooting first occurred, I don't really see any reason TO have any faith that things won't be different this time (only worse). Historically, whenever the race card has been played in a high-profile case, it seems to make people believe that they can demonstrate their anger and frustration in destructive ways - without any regard to the innocent people they destroy in the process. Of course that only makes them every bit as bad as the cop who did the shooting.
Having been on a murder trial jury earlier this year, I can honestly say that I would be settling on Voluntary Manslaughter, as the law defines it. The sentencing is up to the judge, so it's the jury who just needs to assign the amount of guilt to the offense.
I love how some people can armchair and sit in judgement of this cop, telling us it should be 1st degree murder...
...I wonder what you'd do if you were in the same situation with a hundred or so rowdy, drunk partying people - several of whom have demonstrated the willingness to become violent (on the train).
Having been on a murder trial jury earlier this year, I can honestly say that I would be settling on Voluntary Manslaughter, as the law defines it. The sentencing is up to the judge, so it's the jury who just needs to assign the amount of guilt to the offense.
I love how some people can armchair and sit in judgement of this cop, telling us it should be 1st degree murder...
...I wonder what you'd do if you were in the same situation with a hundred or so rowdy, drunk partying people - several of whom have demonstrated the willingness to become violent (on the train).
07-02-2010, 01:59 PM
#32
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Definitely not 1st degree murder, or 2nd degree murder.
Involuntary would be if he went for his taser, which he didn't, he definitely went for his gun. He pulled the trigger, and dude died. He has a gun in his hand, and he was looking down at Oscar, so he can see this firearm. He then took his other hand hand braced the gun, just like you're supposed to when you are going to shoot the firearm. He did so, and he pulled the trigger.
Voluntary manslaughter is what I feel he did, and what I think he should be charged with.
Involuntary would be if he went for his taser, which he didn't, he definitely went for his gun. He pulled the trigger, and dude died. He has a gun in his hand, and he was looking down at Oscar, so he can see this firearm. He then took his other hand hand braced the gun, just like you're supposed to when you are going to shoot the firearm. He did so, and he pulled the trigger.
Voluntary manslaughter is what I feel he did, and what I think he should be charged with.
07-02-2010, 02:32 PM
#33
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Just so you guys know, a taser and a real pistol are VERY different in just about every way, from color, to weight, and even overall shape! There's no way in HELL that I'd ever confuse something like a taser for my primary pistol... On top of that, the officer is trained to use his gun, he is trained thoroughly and his gun becomes an extension of him! If there's one thing he knows really well it's the way his gun feels in his hands... His primary gun is something that's super familiar to him and for him to confuse his gun for his taser is just plain out silly.
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
07-02-2010, 02:46 PM
#34
I agree with Bruce 100% on this. If you take the responsibility of becoming a part of any law enforcement agency you better know damn well the difference between a gun and taser. I think it is bull**** and he should get sentenced with voluntary manslaughter. It isn't a race card thing it is a human thing.
07-02-2010, 04:38 PM
#35
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Just so you guys know, a taser and a real pistol are VERY different in just about every way, from color, to weight, and even overall shape! There's no way in HELL that I'd ever confuse something like a taser for my primary pistol... On top of that, the officer is trained to use his gun, he is trained thoroughly and his gun becomes an extension of him! If there's one thing he knows really well it's the way his gun feels in his hands... His primary gun is something that's super familiar to him and for him to confuse his gun for his taser is just plain out silly.
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
We are not talking about a calm, training day here, we are talking a high stress point, you have someone resisting arrest, you have 30-50 others yelling around you, your brain is going to go into a fight/defense mode and sorry, **** happens.
I just don't get what the big deal is, its not like he ment to shoot the guy, it was pretty clear from the videos that he was shocked when a gun went off in his hand.
Now as to why to stun him, it was pretty clear the suspect was struggling and atemping to continue to resist. Criminal scum like that don't understand or care about the law. Am I happy he died...no, but do I think thats one less troublemaking criminal off the street...yes.
Last edited by Overbear; 07-02-2010 at 04:41 PM.
07-02-2010, 04:58 PM
#36
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he's going to get off non guilty because the da screwed up trying to charge him with murder when it was obvious that it wasn't premeditated.
and that will be the end of it because of double jeopardy he cannot be charged with a lesser crime for the same event with the same facts.
so basically a bunch of stupidity is going to take place for no damn reason with nothing productive out of it.
Operation: verdict is going to be crazy. Should be an interesting next couple of days.
and that will be the end of it because of double jeopardy he cannot be charged with a lesser crime for the same event with the same facts.
so basically a bunch of stupidity is going to take place for no damn reason with nothing productive out of it.
Operation: verdict is going to be crazy. Should be an interesting next couple of days.
07-02-2010, 05:08 PM
#37
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he's going to get off non guilty because the da screwed up trying to charge him with murder when it was obvious that it wasn't premeditated.
and that will be the end of it because of double jeopardy he cannot be charged with a lesser crime for the same event with the same facts.
so basically a bunch of stupidity is going to take place for no damn reason with nothing productive out of it.
Operation: verdict is going to be crazy. Should be an interesting next couple of days.
and that will be the end of it because of double jeopardy he cannot be charged with a lesser crime for the same event with the same facts.
so basically a bunch of stupidity is going to take place for no damn reason with nothing productive out of it.
Operation: verdict is going to be crazy. Should be an interesting next couple of days.
The person on trial (on which I was a juror) was charged with the count of Murder in the 1st degree - premeditated murder. We found him guilty of voluntary manslaughter - which was a lesser offense, but he didn't walk away a free man.
Under the circumstances of the case I was on, the defendant was related to the victim(s) - both the murder victim and the attempted murder victim. He shot them - the defense admitted that in their opening argument - he went home, got a gun, went back to the scene of the earlier confrontation, and wound up, in the end, shooting the victim.
This is about all the information you'd read in the paper about the case, and you would be calling for the jury to hang them high.
It was the rest of the details that convinced us to reduce the charges to voluntary manslaughter.
07-02-2010, 05:43 PM
#39
Just so you guys know, a taser and a real pistol are VERY different in just about every way, from color, to weight, and even overall shape! There's no way in HELL that I'd ever confuse something like a taser for my primary pistol... On top of that, the officer is trained to use his gun, he is trained thoroughly and his gun becomes an extension of him! If there's one thing he knows really well it's the way his gun feels in his hands... His primary gun is something that's super familiar to him and for him to confuse his gun for his taser is just plain out silly.
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
I don't care what kind of stress he's under, if you're going to pull a trigger on something, you better know what the hell you're pulling the trigger of!
On top of all that, why the hell was he tasering that guy anyway? Even if Oscar Grant was SUPER disruptive and causing all sorts of problems for the officers before someone started filming, there's NO REASON for the officer to stun the victim with a taser when he's on the ground face down and in handcuffs!!!
That officer gives other officers a bad name. If he didn't kill Oscar Grant and actually tased him he'd still be in the wrong because there was NO REASON to tase him in the first place... He's the kind of bastard that uses excessive force and makes other police officers look bad.
I hope he gets the maximum amount of time allowable. He deserves it.
(I usually take the side of the officer but in this case, no way)
07-02-2010, 05:55 PM
#40
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Sorry man I have to 100% disagree here with you. Having trained with both, I can tell you now, in the heat of the moment, when your brain isnt picking up things like shape, weight, or even color (most high stress times, the brain filters out color and shifts your optical vision to a high black and white) I doubt I could tell the difference, and I doubt you could eather.
We are not talking about a calm, training day here, we are talking a high stress point, you have someone resisting arrest, you have 30-50 others yelling around you, your brain is going to go into a fight/defense mode and sorry, **** happens.
I just don't get what the big deal is, its not like he ment to shoot the guy, it was pretty clear from the videos that he was shocked when a gun went off in his hand.
Now as to why to stun him, it was pretty clear the suspect was struggling and atemping to continue to resist. Criminal scum like that don't understand or care about the law. Am I happy he died...no, but do I think thats one less troublemaking criminal off the street...yes.
We are not talking about a calm, training day here, we are talking a high stress point, you have someone resisting arrest, you have 30-50 others yelling around you, your brain is going to go into a fight/defense mode and sorry, **** happens.
I just don't get what the big deal is, its not like he ment to shoot the guy, it was pretty clear from the videos that he was shocked when a gun went off in his hand.
Now as to why to stun him, it was pretty clear the suspect was struggling and atemping to continue to resist. Criminal scum like that don't understand or care about the law. Am I happy he died...no, but do I think thats one less troublemaking criminal off the street...yes.
07-02-2010, 06:43 PM
#41
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Cause Grant was such a great guy.... I don't wish death on anyone for any reason but he has lived a life of crime since he was 14, Something like 10 times to jail, drug chagres and lot's more great things he has done with his life. His mom talk on TV live he is some kind of saint and has never done anything wrong...
07-02-2010, 09:32 PM
#42
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Cause Grant was such a great guy.... I don't wish death on anyone for any reason but he has lived a life of crime since he was 14, Something like 10 times to jail, drug chagres and lot's more great things he has done with his life. His mom talk on TV live he is some kind of saint and has never done anything wrong...
Overbear,
Ive also used both and it's not easy to confuse the two... The triggers are so different, the grip is different, the grip angle is different, the girth is different, the color is different, and last but not least, it's holstered in a totally different spot than the pistol holster. Officers spend a lot of time with their guns and he should have known damn well that he wasnt not holding his primary pistol.
I can grab any one of my guns and tell you the make and model without looking at it... If I grabbed anything but my Glock 21 (primary pistol that Ive practiced with more than any other gun) I'd know in a SECOND, especially if I grabbed something like a taser, for all the reasons stated above as well as noting how different they feel in terms of weight balance.
I usually always take sides with the police, but in this case I have to side with the victim because that cop was a POS.
07-02-2010, 09:48 PM
#43
HA! as-of Grant was a physical threat to the handful of officers surrounding him. Grant was down in a prone position, he's not Jet Li, he's some street punk. It woulda been easier for officer kill a black guy to punch Grant in the back of the head. But since the LAPD-Rodney King incident you can't use necessary PHYSICAL force anymore, hence the tasers. Nowadays things escalate too quickly, and training standards clearly aren't up to snuff (for BART police).
Ah for the olden days of hand to hand combat.
Ah for the olden days of hand to hand combat.
07-02-2010, 10:33 PM
#44
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2)he was a POS the world is better off without him, the bart cop did us all a favor and saved us tax money
sorry dude, but your way off base on this one, the model tazer they carry feels just like the grip of a sig, the trigger is damn close, I can see someone grabbing the wrong one when not looking down and being in a high stress moment.
07-02-2010, 11:28 PM
#45
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1)not a victim, he was a criminal
2)he was a POS the world is better off without him, the bart cop did us all a favor and saved us tax money
sorry dude, but your way off base on this one, the model tazer they carry feels just like the grip of a sig, the trigger is damn close, I can see someone grabbing the wrong one when not looking down and being in a high stress moment.
2)he was a POS the world is better off without him, the bart cop did us all a favor and saved us tax money
sorry dude, but your way off base on this one, the model tazer they carry feels just like the grip of a sig, the trigger is damn close, I can see someone grabbing the wrong one when not looking down and being in a high stress moment.