Thunderhill CCW Turn Breakdown (with Video)
06-26-2003, 07:43 PM
#1
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2:13 Thunderhill CCW Turn Breakdown (with Video)
Steve's Easy Thunderhill 2:13 Lap Breakdown
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wrxspam/lst?.dir=/
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
Background - i'm running a 2002 WRX w/ full interior, Vishnu Stage 2+TMIC, Vishnu/JIC Suspension (10 click front / 10 click rear - not cornerweighted yet), Rota Subzero + Toyo Proxy RA1 (235x45x17). Tires were at the end of their life, at the end of this session the two front tires were showing their cords (yikes). Temperature was just about 100 degF in the shade, humidity - don't know.
Coming down the straight, i'm in 4th gear and will hit 110-113 mph (depending on the exit out of Turn 15).
Turn 1 - 4th gear. I will slow down to 83mph. Improvement - need to setup up wider before the turn, brake a little later (wait until the number 3 brake marker), take the turn with more speed and use up all the trackout completely.
Turn 2 - brake and downshift to 3rd gear. I don't remember the speed, but i'm not at peak boost. Improvement - could take the entrance of the turn a little faster, adding a little trailbraking to swing the car around faster. During the turn, I should add at least 2-3 mph since there is still a bit of grip left and let the car trackout a little more - since all that squelling after apex is just scrubbing off speed.
Turn 3 - holding 3rd gear. Brake after the 2nd brake marker. Angle the car towards the apex and be 3/4 of a car width away from the inside corner. As the car settles after the rise, turn in to meet the apex. Aim for the flat spot at the very end of the inside rumble strip. Let the car drive straight for a split second to help settle the car before entering Turn 4. Improvement - enter into Turn 3 with a little more speed and be about 3 ft closer towards the inside of the turn. Add a little more maintainence throttle before reaching the apex.
Turn 4 - holding 3rd gear. Turn in a little bit earlier than you think you should, since the WRX likes to push (understeer). If you do this, you'll be able to hit the apex and carry more speed up the hill. Improvement - I need to floor the accelerator going into the apex of this turn. I tend to relax since I know Turn 5 is a slow turn, but its wasting a few fractions of a second. Going up hill will also increase your traction, so go a little bit faster than you think you'll need.
Turn 5 - 3rd gear, downshifting to 2nd gear, going back 3rd gear. Setup on the outside for the turn in. You want the rear tire to barely graze in the inside of the driverside rumble strip (be careful not to get too much, since it is a large bump). As you crest over 5, you'll see a pedestrian bridge on the far side of the track ... aim the nose of the car right at it and it will line you up for the downhill portion of 5. There is a dark patch of new pavement on the middle-rightside of the track. Aim your right side tires at it, because there is a slight depression that adds grip to the offcamber Turn 5A. Improvement - hold 2nd gear going downhill a little longer to add more momentum and lessen the bog of going into 3rd gear.
Turn 6 - holding 3rd gear. Completely botched up this turn, ran too wide. Entering this turn, line the car up on the right side painted line and turn in slightly early, since the true apex is at the end of the inside rumble strip. There is a significant amount of exit rumble strip to catch you if you run a little wide. Improvement - I lift the throttle entering the turn, which caused the rear to swing out a little, in order to catch traction, I had to hammer the accelerator, which caused the car to push away from the apex. Finish any sort of speedchecking before entering the turn ... unless you want a little oversteer going into it (if that is the case, turn in even earlier - 1/2 car length).
Turn 7 - Top of 3rd gear, going to 4th gear. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - don't turn in too soon. If you wait a little for the end of the road to come up a little closer and then turn in, it makes the approach to 8 a lot easier, since it gives you an additional second to settle the car down before the turn.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wrxspam/lst?.dir=/
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
Background - i'm running a 2002 WRX w/ full interior, Vishnu Stage 2+TMIC, Vishnu/JIC Suspension (10 click front / 10 click rear - not cornerweighted yet), Rota Subzero + Toyo Proxy RA1 (235x45x17). Tires were at the end of their life, at the end of this session the two front tires were showing their cords (yikes). Temperature was just about 100 degF in the shade, humidity - don't know.
Coming down the straight, i'm in 4th gear and will hit 110-113 mph (depending on the exit out of Turn 15).
Turn 1 - 4th gear. I will slow down to 83mph. Improvement - need to setup up wider before the turn, brake a little later (wait until the number 3 brake marker), take the turn with more speed and use up all the trackout completely.
Turn 2 - brake and downshift to 3rd gear. I don't remember the speed, but i'm not at peak boost. Improvement - could take the entrance of the turn a little faster, adding a little trailbraking to swing the car around faster. During the turn, I should add at least 2-3 mph since there is still a bit of grip left and let the car trackout a little more - since all that squelling after apex is just scrubbing off speed.
Turn 3 - holding 3rd gear. Brake after the 2nd brake marker. Angle the car towards the apex and be 3/4 of a car width away from the inside corner. As the car settles after the rise, turn in to meet the apex. Aim for the flat spot at the very end of the inside rumble strip. Let the car drive straight for a split second to help settle the car before entering Turn 4. Improvement - enter into Turn 3 with a little more speed and be about 3 ft closer towards the inside of the turn. Add a little more maintainence throttle before reaching the apex.
Turn 4 - holding 3rd gear. Turn in a little bit earlier than you think you should, since the WRX likes to push (understeer). If you do this, you'll be able to hit the apex and carry more speed up the hill. Improvement - I need to floor the accelerator going into the apex of this turn. I tend to relax since I know Turn 5 is a slow turn, but its wasting a few fractions of a second. Going up hill will also increase your traction, so go a little bit faster than you think you'll need.
Turn 5 - 3rd gear, downshifting to 2nd gear, going back 3rd gear. Setup on the outside for the turn in. You want the rear tire to barely graze in the inside of the driverside rumble strip (be careful not to get too much, since it is a large bump). As you crest over 5, you'll see a pedestrian bridge on the far side of the track ... aim the nose of the car right at it and it will line you up for the downhill portion of 5. There is a dark patch of new pavement on the middle-rightside of the track. Aim your right side tires at it, because there is a slight depression that adds grip to the offcamber Turn 5A. Improvement - hold 2nd gear going downhill a little longer to add more momentum and lessen the bog of going into 3rd gear.
Turn 6 - holding 3rd gear. Completely botched up this turn, ran too wide. Entering this turn, line the car up on the right side painted line and turn in slightly early, since the true apex is at the end of the inside rumble strip. There is a significant amount of exit rumble strip to catch you if you run a little wide. Improvement - I lift the throttle entering the turn, which caused the rear to swing out a little, in order to catch traction, I had to hammer the accelerator, which caused the car to push away from the apex. Finish any sort of speedchecking before entering the turn ... unless you want a little oversteer going into it (if that is the case, turn in even earlier - 1/2 car length).
Turn 7 - Top of 3rd gear, going to 4th gear. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - don't turn in too soon. If you wait a little for the end of the road to come up a little closer and then turn in, it makes the approach to 8 a lot easier, since it gives you an additional second to settle the car down before the turn.
Last edited by CupertinoSteve; 06-27-2003 at 03:00 PM.
06-26-2003, 07:43 PM
#2
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Location: Cupertino, Duh?
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Part 2 ...
Turn 8 - holding 4th gear. Car should be settled before entering this turn. Since there is an uphill at the end of the turn, it will give more exit traction and slow your car down at the same time. Depending on my courage level, right before entering the turn, i'll either tap the brake or throttle lift before flooring the accelerator going into the turn. On rare occasions, I have floored it all the way through, but I usually almost run out of rumble strip and run the risk of going into the dirt. Going back to the turn, I like to aim the car at about 2 ft. past the beginning of the inside rumble strip. This turn is also where the WRX 5MT gear ratios are at its worse. You could enter the turn in 3rd gear, but you'll quickly be at the top of it before the exit of the turn. You could hope to car enough speed through the turn in 4th gear, hoping you don't bog too much as you climb the hill. I passed the rumble strip at about 4750 rpm. Improvement -
Turn 9 - 4th gear, brake, downshift to 3rd gear, back to 4th gear. This is a blind, less than 90 degree uphill turn. You can carry a lot of speed going into this turn. Once you get use to it, you should have the accelerator floored just before the apex, to maximize the upcoming downhill portion going towards Turn 10. Improvement - I need brake a little later for a shorter amount of time and enter the turn at least 2-3mph faster and use all the space on the right for trackout.
Turn 10 - 4th gear, brake and downshift to 3rd gear. This turn is less than 90 degrees, so you can turn in just before the midway point of the inside rumble strip. Improvement - I need to get a little braver and hold the throttle to a little past the 3rd brake marker, brake harder for a shorter period of time and enter the turn a few mph faster, utilizing all the space for tracking out. Notice that there is almost half car width of space left on the right side.
Turn 11 - 3rd gear, braking and downshifting to 2nd gear. This turn was OK.
Turn 12 - Top of 2nd gear, will shift into 3rd gear at exit of the turn. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - if you find your car pushing (understeering a little) in this turn, you can hit the driverside rumble strip at the apex to get the rear end to swing out for this turn.
Turn 13 - Top of 3rd gear, will shift into 4th gear at exit of the turn. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - drive on the rumble strip to maximize the amount of track that can be driven in a straight line.
Turn 14 - 4th gear, brake, downshift to 3rd gear. I won't lift the throttle until I hit brake marker 3. Brake hard and downshift. The apex is a lot later than you'd normally expect, since it is not visable before you turn in. So turn in a little later and floor the accelerator to and through Turn 15. Improvement - Old-school porsche was braking earlier than I usually do and was entering the turn about 5mph slower. I was also only on partial throttle between Turn 14 and Turn 15, to keep from running into the rear of his car. I have tried double downshifting to 2nd gear going into this turn, it give you a lot more torque through the turn and in the straight to 15, but according to lap times there really wasn't too much of a noticeable difference (though a lot of that could be do to my inconsistencies). Doing it the way the way that is documented leads to less chances for mistake. If you can't get into 2nd gear or miss it, you'll lose a lot more time, than simply sitting in 3rd gear. Also you may easily overcook Turn 14, which will screw you up for Turn 15 and the longest straight on the track.
Turn 15 - holding 3rd gear. Setup as far left as possible, turn in about 1/2 car length past the driverside rumble strip. Use the inside berm to kick the rear end around to minimize the understeer and use all the runout space at the exit of the turn (it is slightly banked to give more grip). Improvement - Old-school porsche is holding me up in the setup of Turn 15 and I don't even have enough speed to require the use of the inside berm or to even use any of the exit rumble strip. You should floor the accelerator all the way to Turn 1. I usually do a speed check right at the Start/Finish line, since there is enough time to safely check the speed and get setup for the upcoming turn. If I hit Turn 15 properly, I've gotten up to 113mph. If I don't i'll usually get at least 110 mph.
Turn 9 - 4th gear, brake, downshift to 3rd gear, back to 4th gear. This is a blind, less than 90 degree uphill turn. You can carry a lot of speed going into this turn. Once you get use to it, you should have the accelerator floored just before the apex, to maximize the upcoming downhill portion going towards Turn 10. Improvement - I need brake a little later for a shorter amount of time and enter the turn at least 2-3mph faster and use all the space on the right for trackout.
Turn 10 - 4th gear, brake and downshift to 3rd gear. This turn is less than 90 degrees, so you can turn in just before the midway point of the inside rumble strip. Improvement - I need to get a little braver and hold the throttle to a little past the 3rd brake marker, brake harder for a shorter period of time and enter the turn a few mph faster, utilizing all the space for tracking out. Notice that there is almost half car width of space left on the right side.
Turn 11 - 3rd gear, braking and downshifting to 2nd gear. This turn was OK.
Turn 12 - Top of 2nd gear, will shift into 3rd gear at exit of the turn. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - if you find your car pushing (understeering a little) in this turn, you can hit the driverside rumble strip at the apex to get the rear end to swing out for this turn.
Turn 13 - Top of 3rd gear, will shift into 4th gear at exit of the turn. This turn was OK. BONUS POINT - drive on the rumble strip to maximize the amount of track that can be driven in a straight line.
Turn 14 - 4th gear, brake, downshift to 3rd gear. I won't lift the throttle until I hit brake marker 3. Brake hard and downshift. The apex is a lot later than you'd normally expect, since it is not visable before you turn in. So turn in a little later and floor the accelerator to and through Turn 15. Improvement - Old-school porsche was braking earlier than I usually do and was entering the turn about 5mph slower. I was also only on partial throttle between Turn 14 and Turn 15, to keep from running into the rear of his car. I have tried double downshifting to 2nd gear going into this turn, it give you a lot more torque through the turn and in the straight to 15, but according to lap times there really wasn't too much of a noticeable difference (though a lot of that could be do to my inconsistencies). Doing it the way the way that is documented leads to less chances for mistake. If you can't get into 2nd gear or miss it, you'll lose a lot more time, than simply sitting in 3rd gear. Also you may easily overcook Turn 14, which will screw you up for Turn 15 and the longest straight on the track.
Turn 15 - holding 3rd gear. Setup as far left as possible, turn in about 1/2 car length past the driverside rumble strip. Use the inside berm to kick the rear end around to minimize the understeer and use all the runout space at the exit of the turn (it is slightly banked to give more grip). Improvement - Old-school porsche is holding me up in the setup of Turn 15 and I don't even have enough speed to require the use of the inside berm or to even use any of the exit rumble strip. You should floor the accelerator all the way to Turn 1. I usually do a speed check right at the Start/Finish line, since there is enough time to safely check the speed and get setup for the upcoming turn. If I hit Turn 15 properly, I've gotten up to 113mph. If I don't i'll usually get at least 110 mph.
06-26-2003, 07:44 PM
#3
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Part 3
I did have a 2 x low 2:12 laps recorded with a lap timer on this same session, but I had already run out of video tape. Bummer ... those were my PRs.
Please take this information as an opinion and by no means is it the only way to run at Thunderhill. To put things in perspective, a few months ago I had an race instructor take me around in MY own car to show me what it can do ... we cranked out a 2:04, with him talking, pointing at things to watch out and aim for. After a few fast laps, we pulled in and he said there was probably a few more second he could pull out, but he didn't want to risk an offroad excursion or damaging my car (he was upshifting only at 6700 rpm). Yikes! I guess BMW-USA does hire some pretty hot shoes. He was able to extract so much from my car and only driving it for the first time ... oh Turn 2 was drifted all the way from entrance to exit, eating up all the rumble strip and in Turn 8 we went 3 wide and we were on the inside ... afterwards, he said that we weren't on the ideal line then.
I do have a nice hi-res mpeg of the entire lap, but I have nowhere to host it ... its 60MBs. I also have half session recorded with lap times of 2:14, 2:16, 2:14, 2:15. (which is pretty consistent for me). Can anyone help out here? I've also recorded 2:24 running the Thunderhill in reverse before running out of tape ... there are a lot of place for improvement there. I finished the day running a PR of a high 2:18.
Steve
Please take this information as an opinion and by no means is it the only way to run at Thunderhill. To put things in perspective, a few months ago I had an race instructor take me around in MY own car to show me what it can do ... we cranked out a 2:04, with him talking, pointing at things to watch out and aim for. After a few fast laps, we pulled in and he said there was probably a few more second he could pull out, but he didn't want to risk an offroad excursion or damaging my car (he was upshifting only at 6700 rpm). Yikes! I guess BMW-USA does hire some pretty hot shoes. He was able to extract so much from my car and only driving it for the first time ... oh Turn 2 was drifted all the way from entrance to exit, eating up all the rumble strip and in Turn 8 we went 3 wide and we were on the inside ... afterwards, he said that we weren't on the ideal line then.
I do have a nice hi-res mpeg of the entire lap, but I have nowhere to host it ... its 60MBs. I also have half session recorded with lap times of 2:14, 2:16, 2:14, 2:15. (which is pretty consistent for me). Can anyone help out here? I've also recorded 2:24 running the Thunderhill in reverse before running out of tape ... there are a lot of place for improvement there. I finished the day running a PR of a high 2:18.
Steve
06-26-2003, 08:03 PM
#4
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Car Info: '03 PSM Sedan
it's nice to see some car times from T-Hill, all my time there has been on 2 wheels. your run through of the lap was pretty entertaining to read too. what group did you run T-hill with?
06-26-2003, 11:27 PM
#6
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Hi Leo,
Thanks ... I'm going to see if I can convert it from mpg to wmf, to see if it shrinks without too much degradation. Is there a way I can ftp it to you? My email accounts won't let me send such a large file.
Steve
Thanks ... I'm going to see if I can convert it from mpg to wmf, to see if it shrinks without too much degradation. Is there a way I can ftp it to you? My email accounts won't let me send such a large file.
Steve
06-27-2003, 06:58 AM
#7
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Golden Gate Region - Porsche Club of America Track Guides
Thunderhill CCW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-counterclockwise.pdf
Thunderhill CW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-clockwise.pdf
Buttonwillow CCW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-counterclockwise.pdf
Buttonwillow CW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/bw-clockwise.pdf
Laguna Seca - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/Tracks_LS.pdf
Thunderhill CCW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-counterclockwise.pdf
Thunderhill CW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-clockwise.pdf
Buttonwillow CCW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/th-counterclockwise.pdf
Buttonwillow CW - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/bw-clockwise.pdf
Laguna Seca - http://pca-ggr.org/pdf/Tracks_LS.pdf
06-27-2003, 08:14 AM
#8
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Finally ... after monkeying with 4 different formats, 8 different video codecs and 6 audio codecs. I've gotten a size with a little degradation as possible.
The winner ... NTSC 256kbps (4MB download)
Here's the link:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/c67db...FeG_.AX.ZmzJP9 (right-click, save as)
You'll have to determine for yourself, if it is worth it or not.
Enjoy,
. Steve
The winner ... NTSC 256kbps (4MB download)
Here's the link:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/c67db...FeG_.AX.ZmzJP9 (right-click, save as)
You'll have to determine for yourself, if it is worth it or not.
Enjoy,
. Steve
Last edited by CupertinoSteve; 06-27-2003 at 10:06 AM.
06-27-2003, 10:06 AM
#10
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if that doesn't work ... try this link:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wrxspam/lst?.dir=/
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
if that doesn't work either, then try:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/wrxspam
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wrxspam/lst?.dir=/
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
if that doesn't work either, then try:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/wrxspam
go to the Track_Stuff folder and grab the movie.
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