SOA is really cracking down
04-01-2003, 02:45 PM
#1
SOA is really cracking down
This really sucks, so I brought my car into Santa Cruz today because I got a CEL. Turns out the inner circuit of my O2 sensor is bad, so I figured easy fix just have to have them order the part and have them fix it. Bruce calls me at work and tells me that it's going to be $250...
So I guess SOA is really cracking down on people with mods especially if Santa Cruz denies me warrantee work like this. Nothing against Bruce or Santa Cruz, they're still the best but this really sucks. I don't even have that many mods, the only things I've done to my car (aside from suspension and exterior) are an i-speed jdm uppipe and a catback, i haven't even installed my intake yet. Even the guys at Santa Cruz said they it would be hard to link the O2 sensor to the uppipe.
They say it's because of all the false warrantee claims they've been getting due to mods. So
to all those that make those claims. There was a thread where some guy reported some idiot to SOA for making one bogus claim and everyone started flaming him for turning him in...just wait until this happens to you, you'll understand why he turned him in. People like that just cost me money, I had plans for that money.
So I guess SOA is really cracking down on people with mods especially if Santa Cruz denies me warrantee work like this. Nothing against Bruce or Santa Cruz, they're still the best but this really sucks. I don't even have that many mods, the only things I've done to my car (aside from suspension and exterior) are an i-speed jdm uppipe and a catback, i haven't even installed my intake yet. Even the guys at Santa Cruz said they it would be hard to link the O2 sensor to the uppipe.
They say it's because of all the false warrantee claims they've been getting due to mods. So
to all those that make those claims. There was a thread where some guy reported some idiot to SOA for making one bogus claim and everyone started flaming him for turning him in...just wait until this happens to you, you'll understand why he turned him in. People like that just cost me money, I had plans for that money.
04-01-2003, 02:53 PM
#2
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Uhm... O2 sensor is part of emissions equipment and has it's very own warrantee through CA - If you're under 3/50 it should be covered by SOA. Especially since it doesn't sound like you have any mods that would affect the O2 sensor.
Just cause there are people that are abusing their warrantee doesn't mean your's is less effective and I would call SOA and remind them of that fact. O2 sensors fail - it's the nature of the beast. But they're also a warranteeable part. I would call Bruce and ask him exactly why SOA denied the warrantee.
Just cause there are people that are abusing their warrantee doesn't mean your's is less effective and I would call SOA and remind them of that fact. O2 sensors fail - it's the nature of the beast. But they're also a warranteeable part. I would call Bruce and ask him exactly why SOA denied the warrantee.
04-01-2003, 08:04 PM
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Re: SOA is really cracking down
Originally posted by fanker
...the only things I've done to my car (aside from suspension and exterior) are an i-speed jdm uppipe and a catback, i haven't even installed my intake yet. Even the guys at Santa Cruz said they it would be hard to link the O2 sensor to the uppipe.
...the only things I've done to my car (aside from suspension and exterior) are an i-speed jdm uppipe and a catback, i haven't even installed my intake yet. Even the guys at Santa Cruz said they it would be hard to link the O2 sensor to the uppipe.
Obviously, by no means do I think that mods are a bad thing. But too many people fail to realize that modern engines are engineered with a fair degree of precision. They expect to bear certain forces of a certain magnitude for a certain duration. Leaving your engine to these parameters will almost always result in flawless performance until long after the warranted period is gone. But when you make changes to the way your car turns fuel and air into mehcanical force, you cannot expect those predetermined parameters to be enough to avoid breaking things. More power=less reliabilty. This is a universal truth. Just like walking into an antiques store, if you break it, you bought it.
Warranties are not an insurance policy- they are a written commitment from the manufacturer that they will stand behind their materials and workmanship for a given amount of time or use. When one's actions, in the form of modifications to the ability of a car to produce power, cause the problems, why do people complain that it's someone else's fault? It's not.
Jeez, I went and sounded like a lawyer or something. Mods are great- there isn't any reason not to do them. It's just unfortunate that it has become so hard to make legitimate warranty claims because so many dishonest people have gotten away with stuff.
04-01-2003, 08:39 PM
#4
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Re: Re: SOA is really cracking down
THANK YOU, BAN SUVS!!!
How can you expect SOA to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your uppipe caused the O2 sensor to go out? Do you know how much money that would cost? And who do you think that cost would get passed on to? Would you rather have them fire the engineers who designed the USDM STi? Or lower the quality control parameters so that EVERYONE'S O2 sensor goes bad? Or would you like to pay for them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the modifications that you've made to your car did not cause the O2 sensor to fail? Yes it's very tempting to modify our cars to make more power because they have the potential to make a TON of it. But what people don't seem to understand is that by modifying your BRAND NEW $23,000 car, you are assuming a certain amount of risk. You are effectively shortening the life of virtually every part in the powertrain of the car by modifying it to make more power. When you make modifications, you CANNOT expect SOA to pay for your mistakes. You better have the money to fix your mistakes, or you better not complain when you have to pay $250 to fix something that very likely could have been caused by your modifications. You say, "People like that just cost me money, I had plans for that money." Do you realize that you are doing the EXACT same thing that he did?!?!?!?! Do you realize that you just said, "people like myself just cost me money, I had plans for that money."?!?!?!
I understand what it is like to buy such a nice car and have VERY little money to spend on the modifications that I dream about every night. It really SUCKS!!! But if you just take a step back and realize just how awesome it is that you are able to drive such a nice car in the first place, maybe it would be easier for you to resist modifying your car until you can be truly financially responsible for your actions rather than expecting to be hand-held and given money at moment's notice.
How can you expect SOA to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your uppipe caused the O2 sensor to go out? Do you know how much money that would cost? And who do you think that cost would get passed on to? Would you rather have them fire the engineers who designed the USDM STi? Or lower the quality control parameters so that EVERYONE'S O2 sensor goes bad? Or would you like to pay for them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the modifications that you've made to your car did not cause the O2 sensor to fail? Yes it's very tempting to modify our cars to make more power because they have the potential to make a TON of it. But what people don't seem to understand is that by modifying your BRAND NEW $23,000 car, you are assuming a certain amount of risk. You are effectively shortening the life of virtually every part in the powertrain of the car by modifying it to make more power. When you make modifications, you CANNOT expect SOA to pay for your mistakes. You better have the money to fix your mistakes, or you better not complain when you have to pay $250 to fix something that very likely could have been caused by your modifications. You say, "People like that just cost me money, I had plans for that money." Do you realize that you are doing the EXACT same thing that he did?!?!?!?! Do you realize that you just said, "people like myself just cost me money, I had plans for that money."?!?!?!
I understand what it is like to buy such a nice car and have VERY little money to spend on the modifications that I dream about every night. It really SUCKS!!! But if you just take a step back and realize just how awesome it is that you are able to drive such a nice car in the first place, maybe it would be easier for you to resist modifying your car until you can be truly financially responsible for your actions rather than expecting to be hand-held and given money at moment's notice.
04-01-2003, 09:54 PM
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I'll disclaim this by first saying that I agree that, for the most part, power and reliability are on opposite sides of a sliding scale. And that if you're boneheaded enough to turn the power to eleven without addressing strength/reliability then you get you what you deserve - Case in point 18psi melting a motor. I don't think SOA should have bought him a new motor.
However, I am going to have to play devil's advocate here for just a little bit. I've seen a lot of good 02 sensors replaced by competant technicians. If the scanner says 02 sensor biased lean, often the 02 sensor is replaced without checking tail pipe emissions or sensor voltages. 02 sensors are also fairly sturdy little buggers. Sure, a little coolant will generally nuke one. And excessive heat (>1500 deg f) may cause cracking. But I've also seen quite a number of 02 sensors fail in new, stock vehicles. And to say that a modified up-pipe and a catback exhaust caused the failure in the 02 sensor leaves me a little cold. Even more so because cars sold in California must carry a 3 year/50,000 mile warrantee on emissions related parts. Since 02 sensor is critical to a feedback system and closed loop operation - I'd say it qualifies. I stand by saying "Call SOA".
There are some details left out. Which 02 sensor failed? How was the sensor diagnosed? What was the actual code pulled from the computer and was there freeze frame evidence of abuse? And is this a common sensor failure?
I ask the last question because even though there has been a TSB regarding wheel bearings - there's still some dispute about the cause of failure. SOA is also reported as saying that sealed bearings are "wearable items"... But I digress.
I think that abuse is generally a fairly clearly defined term. I don't necessarily believe that fanker's case is abuse.
The only remaining question on my mind (in terms of abuse) is whether or not uppipes are raising exhaust temps beyond 1500 degrees f. Is anyone actually seeing this happen??
Edit added here:
Regarding exaust temps. I'd have to say that every O2 sensor I've dealt with is from a NA engine. The documentation I've got says that they're generally good to about 1500 degrees f. In looking through the factory boost forum I see people talking of temps in the 1450's (downpipe) and 1650's (uppipte) for stock motors... I would hope that either Subaru Engineers are using a higher grade 02 sensor or has it placed far enough downstream that EGT's are low enough.
However, I am going to have to play devil's advocate here for just a little bit. I've seen a lot of good 02 sensors replaced by competant technicians. If the scanner says 02 sensor biased lean, often the 02 sensor is replaced without checking tail pipe emissions or sensor voltages. 02 sensors are also fairly sturdy little buggers. Sure, a little coolant will generally nuke one. And excessive heat (>1500 deg f) may cause cracking. But I've also seen quite a number of 02 sensors fail in new, stock vehicles. And to say that a modified up-pipe and a catback exhaust caused the failure in the 02 sensor leaves me a little cold. Even more so because cars sold in California must carry a 3 year/50,000 mile warrantee on emissions related parts. Since 02 sensor is critical to a feedback system and closed loop operation - I'd say it qualifies. I stand by saying "Call SOA".
There are some details left out. Which 02 sensor failed? How was the sensor diagnosed? What was the actual code pulled from the computer and was there freeze frame evidence of abuse? And is this a common sensor failure?
I ask the last question because even though there has been a TSB regarding wheel bearings - there's still some dispute about the cause of failure. SOA is also reported as saying that sealed bearings are "wearable items"... But I digress.
I think that abuse is generally a fairly clearly defined term. I don't necessarily believe that fanker's case is abuse.
The only remaining question on my mind (in terms of abuse) is whether or not uppipes are raising exhaust temps beyond 1500 degrees f. Is anyone actually seeing this happen??
Edit added here:
Regarding exaust temps. I'd have to say that every O2 sensor I've dealt with is from a NA engine. The documentation I've got says that they're generally good to about 1500 degrees f. In looking through the factory boost forum I see people talking of temps in the 1450's (downpipe) and 1650's (uppipte) for stock motors... I would hope that either Subaru Engineers are using a higher grade 02 sensor or has it placed far enough downstream that EGT's are low enough.
Last edited by Joe Longworth; 04-01-2003 at 10:03 PM.
04-01-2003, 10:18 PM
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Joe- I'm inclined to agree also that he deserved a new sensor. But I also can't help but feel like Chris Rock talking about OJ when I say, "I don't agree with it, but I understand it!" Also, the CA emissions warranty is still a warranty... it would be automatically voided if the factory bumper-to-bumper warranty were. Tough call to make, and like you said, it's easy to play devil's advocate on this one.
04-01-2003, 10:21 PM
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Re: Re: Re: SOA is really cracking down
Originally posted by Steppin Razor
THANK YOU, BAN SUVS!!!
How can you expect SOA to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your uppipe caused the O2 sensor to go out?
THANK YOU, BAN SUVS!!!
How can you expect SOA to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your uppipe caused the O2 sensor to go out?
From http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/magnusonmoss.htm
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov.
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov.
04-01-2003, 10:27 PM
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Joe is probably correct about exhaust temps. More power= more heat produced as a waste product. No costs incurred to prove that, other than putting an engineer on the stand if it came before an arbitrator.
04-01-2003, 10:32 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: SOA is really cracking down
Originally posted by mexicanpizza
I can, because Congress does:
I can, because Congress does:
04-02-2003, 07:41 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SOA is really cracking down
Originally posted by Steppin Razor
Oh God, you do things because congress says you should? Are you sure that's what you meant?
Oh God, you do things because congress says you should? Are you sure that's what you meant?
-=Eric
04-02-2003, 08:50 AM
#11
ok guys, i didn't mean for this to become a big arguement. don't get me wrong i'm willing to face all consequences of my actions. if my modifications caused the issue i'll pay for it, i'm not going to cry like a little baby over it if it were my fault. fact is that it wasn't my fault and i'm getting penalized for it. is it fair? no, but life isn't fair right?
i agree with everything that was said in the thread, but i don't have to like it. understand that i chose the i-speed uppipe because it was a subaru manufactured part, i chose the stromung catback because even subaru santa cruz endorses and sells them. it was the rear O2 sensor that went bad to let you know. the code that was pulled was p100 mass air flow circuit failure. let me tell you also that the people at santa cruz and other knowledgable mechanics do not believe that the uppipe could have possibly caused this.
i understand why subaru is doing this, it's because of all the dishonest people out there. i still give a thumbs up to santa cruz, especially bruce, he tried his best to get the district manager to sign off on the warrantee work.
i think i've said my part, go ahead and flame away...
i agree with everything that was said in the thread, but i don't have to like it. understand that i chose the i-speed uppipe because it was a subaru manufactured part, i chose the stromung catback because even subaru santa cruz endorses and sells them. it was the rear O2 sensor that went bad to let you know. the code that was pulled was p100 mass air flow circuit failure. let me tell you also that the people at santa cruz and other knowledgable mechanics do not believe that the uppipe could have possibly caused this.
i understand why subaru is doing this, it's because of all the dishonest people out there. i still give a thumbs up to santa cruz, especially bruce, he tried his best to get the district manager to sign off on the warrantee work.
i think i've said my part, go ahead and flame away...
04-02-2003, 09:00 AM
#12
Re: Re: Re: SOA is really cracking down
Originally posted by Steppin Razor
maybe it would be easier for you to resist modifying your car until you can be truly financially responsible for your actions rather than expecting to be hand-held and given money at moment's notice.
maybe it would be easier for you to resist modifying your car until you can be truly financially responsible for your actions rather than expecting to be hand-held and given money at moment's notice.
i am not making this an issue about money...like i said i will take full responsiblity for the failure if i caused it. if i blew up the engine i would pay for it, if it were my mods that caused this i wouldn't even question it and open my wallet.
04-02-2003, 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by fanker
please don't make this a personal issue because you really don't know me, you don't know if i am financially responsible or not.
i am not making this an issue about money...like i said i will take full responsiblity for the failure if i caused it. if i blew up the engine i would pay for it, if it were my mods that caused this i wouldn't even question it and open my wallet.
please don't make this a personal issue because you really don't know me, you don't know if i am financially responsible or not.
i am not making this an issue about money...like i said i will take full responsiblity for the failure if i caused it. if i blew up the engine i would pay for it, if it were my mods that caused this i wouldn't even question it and open my wallet.
correct me if i am wrong here: can't any service shop refuse to work on a car that has a modified smog systems, ie removal of catalytic converters? i know they can, and in fact are SUPPOSED to, refuse to work on cars that are unsafe or illegal to operate unless they are fixing the problem at hand. for example, i had a shop refuse to do an alignment on my car because the tires didn't have enough tread left. it wasn't because the alignment wouldn't be perfect, it was because if they gave my car back to me after working on it and it caused me to lose control and crash, they could be held responsible.
04-02-2003, 02:06 PM
#14
Originally posted by Steppin Razor
you're right, i don't know you. i just found it interesting that you were getting pissed at people who mod their cars and try to get warrantee work done on them when that's exactly what you tried to do. you could be right that the subaru downipe didn't cause the sensor to go bad. infact, subaru should stand by their products, even though that particular part wasn't made for the USDM EJ20, it should still work.
correct me if i am wrong here: can't any service shop refuse to work on a car that has a modified smog systems, ie removal of catalytic converters? i know they can, and in fact are SUPPOSED to, refuse to work on cars that are unsafe or illegal to operate unless they are fixing the problem at hand. for example, i had a shop refuse to do an alignment on my car because the tires didn't have enough tread left. it wasn't because the alignment wouldn't be perfect, it was because if they gave my car back to me after working on it and it caused me to lose control and crash, they could be held responsible.
you're right, i don't know you. i just found it interesting that you were getting pissed at people who mod their cars and try to get warrantee work done on them when that's exactly what you tried to do. you could be right that the subaru downipe didn't cause the sensor to go bad. infact, subaru should stand by their products, even though that particular part wasn't made for the USDM EJ20, it should still work.
correct me if i am wrong here: can't any service shop refuse to work on a car that has a modified smog systems, ie removal of catalytic converters? i know they can, and in fact are SUPPOSED to, refuse to work on cars that are unsafe or illegal to operate unless they are fixing the problem at hand. for example, i had a shop refuse to do an alignment on my car because the tires didn't have enough tread left. it wasn't because the alignment wouldn't be perfect, it was because if they gave my car back to me after working on it and it caused me to lose control and crash, they could be held responsible.
i'm not pissed at people who try to get warrantee work done on modded cars, i'm pissed at people who are dishonest and try to rip off Subaru for their own mistakes and don't live up to their responsibility. i'm not sure if shops are not supposed to work on any car that is unsafe or illegal to drive, if that is true then i will accept that. but that isn't why my warrantee claim was denied, if they gave me that reason, i would have just let it go. like i said i will take full responsibility for my actions, but they said it was because of the false warrantee claims that subaru has been losing money on. i totally agree with you, if they don't want to work on my car because of the uppipe then tell me that and i'll be fine with it.
just to let you know i've already ordered the part and i'm going to fix it at my own cost, i'm not going to pursue it any further just let it go.
04-03-2003, 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by Steppin Razor
correct me if i am wrong here: can't any service shop refuse to work on a car that has a modified smog systems, ie removal of catalytic converters? i know they can, and in fact are SUPPOSED to, refuse to work on cars that are unsafe or illegal to operate unless they are fixing the problem at hand. for example, i had a shop refuse to do an alignment on my car because the tires didn't have enough tread left. it wasn't because the alignment wouldn't be perfect, it was because if they gave my car back to me after working on it and it caused me to lose control and crash, they could be held responsible.
correct me if i am wrong here: can't any service shop refuse to work on a car that has a modified smog systems, ie removal of catalytic converters? i know they can, and in fact are SUPPOSED to, refuse to work on cars that are unsafe or illegal to operate unless they are fixing the problem at hand. for example, i had a shop refuse to do an alignment on my car because the tires didn't have enough tread left. it wasn't because the alignment wouldn't be perfect, it was because if they gave my car back to me after working on it and it caused me to lose control and crash, they could be held responsible.
It's generally in the shops best interest to not work on an unsafe vehicle without making the vehicle safe first. IE: your alignment example. And really, with unsafely worn tires I doubt the alignment would be perfect - or at least solve the reason you brought the car in for alignment in the first place. (pulling??)
Still, regarding the O2 sensor failure. If we're talking "rear" as the final post cat O2 sensor, I don't see how an uppipe or cat back exhaust would cause the failure. If Bruce's decision to not cover the O2 sensor is based on SOA's approval, I would ask him to find out exactly why they are denying warrantee coverage. If it was Bruce's call, I would ask him why he felt that your mods caused that particular O2 sensors failure (and not any other O2 sensors). I'll also have a chat with a friend and discuss why a bad rear O2 sensor would throw a P100 code. Can you be more specific than "rear" 02 sensor?