Question: Will the plane fly? (warning: nerdy)
01-23-2006, 07:27 PM
#46
Originally Posted by rau
the only things moving in this situation is the conveyor belt, and the fan blades on the turbines, which does move the air ---> BUT! <--- only at the same speed as the conveyor belt, therein keeping the plane stationary. the only way the plane would generate lift is if there is a 1) ginormous *** fan pushing air at the stall speed or faster, or 2) the turbines generate enough force to push the plane faster than the belt, depending on the length of the belt. to the ******* that said yes, slap some more stickers on you car and gain a few more HP, but not too much, the drag might work against the gain...
and +100 on the rolfcopter, that thing can fly anywhere.....
and +100 on the rolfcopter, that thing can fly anywhere.....
01-23-2006, 08:40 PM
#47
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yeah, Ed, the plane wont move, the engines to not make te plane fly, they only move the plane forward, which, in turn, creates the airflow over the wings, creating the lift required to take off. if the plane used prop engines rather than jet engines, they might be able to get enough air to move over the wings to create a little bit of lift, but in reality, not nearly enough for the plane to take off
01-23-2006, 09:32 PM
#48
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This dumb, just think if the plane had no wheels at all, since the belt is pretty much taking the wheels out of the equation. If a plane had no wheels would it take off? No. It would look retarded sitting on the ground making a ****load of noise and not going anywhere.
01-23-2006, 09:46 PM
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It will not fly.
Airplanes rely on the lift created by the moving air against its wings. The jet engines provide the trust to get the airplane to speed and get it moving through the air that creates drag. Plus, with gravity pulling the airplane down, it needs something to keep it moving.
Helicopters archive the same by having their wings (propeller) move through the air and create lift. This example, would be like having a helicopter take off in vacuum. Not gonna happen.
So in that example, the wings become absolete since there will be nothing moving against them. And, the jet engines do not produce enough thrust to push the plane off the ground?So, if you wanna refrase the question, take the wings away from the plane.
I have heard about planes flying with no engine power (engines stall, gliders, etc). However, I have not heard about planes flying with no wings. Rockets do that, but they do not rely on wing lift and merely rely on their engines which produce a lot more power than the airplane jet engines.
I think that makes perfect sense.
Airplanes rely on the lift created by the moving air against its wings. The jet engines provide the trust to get the airplane to speed and get it moving through the air that creates drag. Plus, with gravity pulling the airplane down, it needs something to keep it moving.
Helicopters archive the same by having their wings (propeller) move through the air and create lift. This example, would be like having a helicopter take off in vacuum. Not gonna happen.
So in that example, the wings become absolete since there will be nothing moving against them. And, the jet engines do not produce enough thrust to push the plane off the ground?So, if you wanna refrase the question, take the wings away from the plane.
I have heard about planes flying with no engine power (engines stall, gliders, etc). However, I have not heard about planes flying with no wings.
Rockets do that, but they do not rely on wing lift and merely rely on their engines which produce a lot more power than the airplane jet engines.I think that makes perfect sense.
01-23-2006, 09:46 PM
#51
Originally Posted by psoper
Why do stupid people keep trying to argue with the correct answer?
Thanks
01-23-2006, 09:49 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Thank you!
After clearing up the the left out details as Pete pointed out, we can see that all the plane needs to take off is the ability to accelerate to propper take-off speed. And as Pete mentions here, the wheels don't have a significant effect on the plane's acceleration. It doesn't matter how fast the treadmill spins because the plane will still move relative to the air around it and accelerate just fine. The treadmill will just be spinning the wheels faster, but since the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate, it really doesnt matter (of course this is ignoring any frictional losses that put a force on the plane in the other direction, but these are negligable when compared to the thrust force of the plane's engines that are exerter on the relatively stationary AIR around it).
After clearing up the the left out details as Pete pointed out, we can see that all the plane needs to take off is the ability to accelerate to propper take-off speed. And as Pete mentions here, the wheels don't have a significant effect on the plane's acceleration. It doesn't matter how fast the treadmill spins because the plane will still move relative to the air around it and accelerate just fine. The treadmill will just be spinning the wheels faster, but since the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate, it really doesnt matter (of course this is ignoring any frictional losses that put a force on the plane in the other direction, but these are negligable when compared to the thrust force of the plane's engines that are exerter on the relatively stationary AIR around it).
Wrong.. if the plane is effectively stationary (is this a prop or a jet pane?), the plane wont have any effective airflow over the wings (beyond normal wind direction).
Wheels have nothing to do with this... Ever strapped a car to a dyno ed??? take the straps off and match the roller speed with the the speed of the wheels exactly.. tell me how much air is flowing over the top of the car...
No air over and under the wing = no lift
Unless of course you can explain to me how you are going to create lift out of no where...
I am of course assuming a few things..
A. That the speed is being matched EXACTLY to effectivly make any movement of the aircraft null..
B. Not a propeller based air plane (basicly its not pulling air over the wings, but it is pushing air from behind)... not that it matters much dont thin a prop based plane would be able to displace nuff air to create nuff lift to get airborn (could if it was an ultra light with some bad *** motor and variable angle prop...)
C. I am not on drugs...
I have an excuse if i am wrong... do you?
01-23-2006, 09:53 PM
#53
DEAR GOD!
One last time! The plane DOES move through the air. Its not like a car which moves forward by putting power through the wheels. Instead the plane applies a thrust force on the air around it to move itself forward. Several of you have even said this and still think the plane won't move. If the air around the plane is relatively stationary, what happens when the thrust force is applied? The plane moves forward relative to the air around it! The wheels spin freely so they'll just have to spin twice as fast to keep up with the plane moving forward and the treadmill moving backwards.
The main thing to realize is that the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate so it doesn't matter how fast or what direction the wheels are spinning... the plane will still move.
Here's an example to illustrate this. Note I did not come up with this example myself. Imagine you have roller skates on and you're standing on a treadmill. Above you is a set of rails that you can hold on to with your hands that span the length of the treadmill. Now hold on to the rails above your head and turn the treadmill on. The treadmill will be spinning your rollerskates but you'll easily be able to stay stationary by holding on to the railing. Now start pulling yourself forward using your arms and the railing and for the hell of it, increase the speed of the treadmill. Do you move forward? Yes, your roller skates just have to spin faster to keep up.
OK I'm really done now!
One last time! The plane DOES move through the air. Its not like a car which moves forward by putting power through the wheels. Instead the plane applies a thrust force on the air around it to move itself forward. Several of you have even said this and still think the plane won't move. If the air around the plane is relatively stationary, what happens when the thrust force is applied? The plane moves forward relative to the air around it! The wheels spin freely so they'll just have to spin twice as fast to keep up with the plane moving forward and the treadmill moving backwards.
The main thing to realize is that the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate so it doesn't matter how fast or what direction the wheels are spinning... the plane will still move.
Here's an example to illustrate this. Note I did not come up with this example myself. Imagine you have roller skates on and you're standing on a treadmill. Above you is a set of rails that you can hold on to with your hands that span the length of the treadmill. Now hold on to the rails above your head and turn the treadmill on. The treadmill will be spinning your rollerskates but you'll easily be able to stay stationary by holding on to the railing. Now start pulling yourself forward using your arms and the railing and for the hell of it, increase the speed of the treadmill. Do you move forward? Yes, your roller skates just have to spin faster to keep up.
OK I'm really done now!
01-23-2006, 09:55 PM
#54
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put it like this...
if you could have a plane take off with no forward movement at full thrust why the **** dont planes take off when they have their brakes on full lock?
Same damn thing as the question that is posed here (assuming that the conveyor system keeps the plane in the same exact location, and the above conditions are met about propellors, wind over the wing, etc)...
Think about it..
if you could have a plane take off with no forward movement at full thrust why the **** dont planes take off when they have their brakes on full lock?
Same damn thing as the question that is posed here (assuming that the conveyor system keeps the plane in the same exact location, and the above conditions are met about propellors, wind over the wing, etc)...
Think about it..
01-23-2006, 09:56 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by Imprezer
It will not fly.
Originally Posted by Imprezer
Airplanes rely on the lift created by the moving air against its wings.
Originally Posted by Imprezer
The jet engines provide the trust to get the airplane to speed and get it moving through the air that creates drag. Plus, with gravity pulling the airplane down, it needs something to keep it moving.
Originally Posted by Imprezer
So in that example, the wings become absolete since there will be nothing moving against them.
Originally Posted by Imprezer
And, the jet engines do not produce enough thrust to push the plane off the ground?So, if you wanna refrase the question, take the wings away from the plane.
Originally Posted by Imprezer
I think that makes perfect sense.
01-23-2006, 09:56 PM
#56
Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
A. That the speed is being matched EXACTLY to effectivly make any movement of the aircraft null..
01-23-2006, 09:56 PM
#57
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That's a trick question. As it is stated, the plane will fly. Like others have explained, the plane will move down the runway with the wheels spinning 2x fast as if there was no conveyor.
The other thing is that, because of the way a plane works (doesn't drive the wheels at all, they turn free) if you put a plane on a treadmill or dyno style conveyor belt (reversed the motion of the belt compared to the question in post 1), it will drive off the end of it and take off anyway or crash into something.
In order to throttle a plane and have it not move (and therefore not take off), you need an air treadmill (also known as a wind tunnel).
The other thing is that, because of the way a plane works (doesn't drive the wheels at all, they turn free) if you put a plane on a treadmill or dyno style conveyor belt (reversed the motion of the belt compared to the question in post 1), it will drive off the end of it and take off anyway or crash into something.
In order to throttle a plane and have it not move (and therefore not take off), you need an air treadmill (also known as a wind tunnel).
01-23-2006, 09:57 PM
#58
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Ok, not i re-red the question and yes, there is not enough info in it.
I can think of one airplane that will take off.
A jet fighter with vertical take-off capability or vector thrusting jet.
Here is another hypothetical question...
Imagine aircraft carrier. 0 wing condition. No wind at all.
Lets stay to take off, a jet (non vector/vertical take off) airplane is about to take off.
Lets say the plane needs to trave Xmph to generate enough lift and take off.
Lets say the aircraft carrier CAN travel at Xmph.
So lets say it is travelling Xmph NORTH.
At what speed will an airplane take off if the plane is taking off toward NORTH (same direction as the ship)?
And, will it take off at all if it is trying to take off going SOUTH?
Remember, NO WIND condition.
Now I am all confused why airplanes fly and don't need to flop their wings like birds. j/k lol
I can think of one airplane that will take off.
A jet fighter with vertical take-off capability or vector thrusting jet.
Here is another hypothetical question...
Imagine aircraft carrier. 0 wing condition. No wind at all.
Lets stay to take off, a jet (non vector/vertical take off) airplane is about to take off.
Lets say the plane needs to trave Xmph to generate enough lift and take off.
Lets say the aircraft carrier CAN travel at Xmph.
So lets say it is travelling Xmph NORTH.
At what speed will an airplane take off if the plane is taking off toward NORTH (same direction as the ship)?
And, will it take off at all if it is trying to take off going SOUTH?
Remember, NO WIND condition.
Now I am all confused why airplanes fly and don't need to flop their wings like birds. j/k lol
01-23-2006, 09:59 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
DEAR GOD!
One last time! The plane DOES move through the air. Its not like a car which moves forward by putting power through the wheels. Instead the plane applies a thrust force on the air around it to move itself forward. Several of you have even said this and still think the plane won't move. If the air around the plane is relatively stationary, what happens when the thrust force is applied? The plane moves forward relative to the air around it! The wheels spin freely so they'll just have to spin twice as fast to keep up with the plane moving forward and the treadmill moving backwards.
The main thing to realize is that the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate so it doesn't matter how fast or what direction the wheels are spinning... the plane will still move.
Here's an example to illustrate this. Note I did not come up with this example myself. Imagine you have roller skates on and you're standing on a treadmill. Above you is a set of rails that you can hold on to with your hands that span the length of the treadmill. Now hold on to the rails above your head and turn the treadmill on. The treadmill will be spinning your rollerskates but you'll easily be able to stay stationary by holding on to the railing. Now start pulling yourself forward using your arms and the railing and for the hell of it, increase the speed of the treadmill. Do you move forward? Yes, your roller skates just have to spin faster to keep up.
OK I'm really done now!
One last time! The plane DOES move through the air. Its not like a car which moves forward by putting power through the wheels. Instead the plane applies a thrust force on the air around it to move itself forward. Several of you have even said this and still think the plane won't move. If the air around the plane is relatively stationary, what happens when the thrust force is applied? The plane moves forward relative to the air around it! The wheels spin freely so they'll just have to spin twice as fast to keep up with the plane moving forward and the treadmill moving backwards.
The main thing to realize is that the plane doesn't use the wheels to accelerate so it doesn't matter how fast or what direction the wheels are spinning... the plane will still move.
Here's an example to illustrate this. Note I did not come up with this example myself. Imagine you have roller skates on and you're standing on a treadmill. Above you is a set of rails that you can hold on to with your hands that span the length of the treadmill. Now hold on to the rails above your head and turn the treadmill on. The treadmill will be spinning your rollerskates but you'll easily be able to stay stationary by holding on to the railing. Now start pulling yourself forward using your arms and the railing and for the hell of it, increase the speed of the treadmill. Do you move forward? Yes, your roller skates just have to spin faster to keep up.
OK I'm really done now!
Ed seriously.. you went to UCD engineering school... and you think that the plane is magicaly going to leap out of the air from a stand still...
Again if the treadmill (for lack of a better word) is smart nuff to match the exact forward momentum of the airplane as the thurst is PUSHING IT down the "tread mill", thus negating any forward movement all you are effectivly doing is "locking" the airplane in place at full thrust....
Last i checked when they strapped planes down to do burn ins on the engines they didnt leap out of the air and into flight... (note they strap them down as extra precautions seeing as how brakes fail.. and the last thing you want is a jet tearing *** down a runway uncontrolled)..
do you see what i am saying?
01-23-2006, 09:59 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
Wrong.. if the plane is effectively stationary (is this a prop or a jet pane?), the plane wont have any effective airflow over the wings (beyond normal wind direction).
Wheels have nothing to do with this... Ever strapped a car to a dyno ed??? take the straps off and match the roller speed with the the speed of the wheels exactly.. tell me how much air is flowing over the top of the car...
No air over and under the wing = no lift
Unless of course you can explain to me how you are going to create lift out of no where...
I am of course assuming a few things..
A. That the speed is being matched EXACTLY to effectivly make any movement of the aircraft null..
B. Not a propeller based air plane (basicly its not pulling air over the wings, but it is pushing air from behind)... not that it matters much dont thin a prop based plane would be able to displace nuff air to create nuff lift to get airborn (could if it was an ultra light with some bad *** motor and variable angle prop...)
C. I am not on drugs...
I have an excuse if i am wrong... do you?
Wheels have nothing to do with this... Ever strapped a car to a dyno ed??? take the straps off and match the roller speed with the the speed of the wheels exactly.. tell me how much air is flowing over the top of the car...
No air over and under the wing = no lift
Unless of course you can explain to me how you are going to create lift out of no where...
I am of course assuming a few things..
A. That the speed is being matched EXACTLY to effectivly make any movement of the aircraft null..
B. Not a propeller based air plane (basicly its not pulling air over the wings, but it is pushing air from behind)... not that it matters much dont thin a prop based plane would be able to displace nuff air to create nuff lift to get airborn (could if it was an ultra light with some bad *** motor and variable angle prop...)
C. I am not on drugs...
I have an excuse if i am wrong... do you?
AIRPLANES DO NOT DERIVE MOMENTUM THROUGH FORCES TURNING THEIR WHEELS THEY DERIVE MOMENTUM FROM THRUST GENERATED BY THEIR ENGINES AGAINST THE AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!
good god, I thought you had more sense than that!!