Question for the gun owners
09-08-2008, 12:27 PM
#61
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pleasanton CA
Posts: 158
Car Info: 2 feet
here are some pics
My Piston DMR
my Troy scout m1a
my home defense gun
my carry gun and a hint as to what on its 10day wait.
the tags are for when the guns are demos in the store.
and somthing im eye-balling in the shop
My Piston DMR
my Troy scout m1a
my home defense gun
my carry gun and a hint as to what on its 10day wait.
the tags are for when the guns are demos in the store.
and somthing im eye-balling in the shop
09-08-2008, 06:48 PM
#67
Friendly Neighborhood Ogre
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: www.gunatics.com
Posts: 19,930
Car Info: GUNATICS.COM
Real optic? Whats wrong with his current setup?
The best optics Ive ever used were the trijicon ACOGs... I was addicted the first time I tried one... For me they blow ANYTHING out of the water especially for an AR-15. Second in line is a holosight...
Also, what kind of shells are those in the mossberg sidewinder? Whats that green stuff? I've never seen those sort of shotgun rounds before.
PS: I'm thinking of putting an ACOG onto my AK-47. The only thing that makes the AK not so accurate is the fact that the sights SUCK! Way too much eye relief and far too loose. I can still group nicely at 100 yards, but would be FAR better with an optic, and since the ACOG pwns all I figure why not?
Now let me just save up $1100 for an ACOG.
The best optics Ive ever used were the trijicon ACOGs... I was addicted the first time I tried one... For me they blow ANYTHING out of the water especially for an AR-15. Second in line is a holosight...
Also, what kind of shells are those in the mossberg sidewinder? Whats that green stuff? I've never seen those sort of shotgun rounds before.
PS: I'm thinking of putting an ACOG onto my AK-47. The only thing that makes the AK not so accurate is the fact that the sights SUCK! Way too much eye relief and far too loose. I can still group nicely at 100 yards, but would be FAR better with an optic, and since the ACOG pwns all I figure why not?
Now let me just save up $1100 for an ACOG.
09-08-2008, 06:52 PM
#68
Registered User
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Snatchin' your people up
Posts: 3,779
Car Info: Hilux Double Cab with a Dishka on top
Real optic? Whats wrong with his current setup?
The best optics Ive ever used were the trijicon ACOGs... I was addicted the first time I tried one... For me they blow ANYTHING out of the water especially for an AR-15. Second in line is a holosight...
Also, what kind of shells are those in the mossberg sidewinder? Whats that green stuff? I've never seen those sort of shotgun rounds before.
PS: I'm thinking of putting an ACOG onto my AK-47. The only thing that makes the AK not so accurate is the fact that the sights SUCK! Way too much eye relief and far too loose. I can still group nicely at 100 yards, but would be FAR better with an optic, and since the ACOG pwns all I figure why not?
Now let me just save up $1100 for an ACOG.
The best optics Ive ever used were the trijicon ACOGs... I was addicted the first time I tried one... For me they blow ANYTHING out of the water especially for an AR-15. Second in line is a holosight...
Also, what kind of shells are those in the mossberg sidewinder? Whats that green stuff? I've never seen those sort of shotgun rounds before.
PS: I'm thinking of putting an ACOG onto my AK-47. The only thing that makes the AK not so accurate is the fact that the sights SUCK! Way too much eye relief and far too loose. I can still group nicely at 100 yards, but would be FAR better with an optic, and since the ACOG pwns all I figure why not?
Now let me just save up $1100 for an ACOG.
For a DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) like his, a Schmidt & Bender Short Dot would be a much better optic to match his setup IMO. They ain't cheap though. At least twice the cost of an ACOG.
09-08-2008, 07:35 PM
#70
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pleasanton CA
Posts: 158
Car Info: 2 feet
the barrett m99 in .416 is at Irvington Arms.
i dont like 1-4 variables... i need nothing under 4. both eyes open and i can use it as red dot even without the doctor. i dont know, i just never warmed up to them. i have extensive epxeriance with a meostar.(though, never a short dot)
if i do anything ill go to a fixed 10x with a doctor as with the acog im getting between .75 and 1" groups. that said im super happy with the acog... plus i dont pay retail pricing. i got my acog used for stupid cheap.
bah! and you show a 416...
i was thoroughly dissapointed with the 416. the recoil impulse was somewhat of a letdown. too much. on full auto it liked to hop like a SBR 6.8 IMO.
i think the next project is gonna be a surgeon magnum action.... that said.. i still need to finish my bulgarian aks-74u (krinkov) plus i have 2 ar pistold recievers that need to be built and a dream of a super obnoxious ar10 pistol.
i dont like 1-4 variables... i need nothing under 4. both eyes open and i can use it as red dot even without the doctor. i dont know, i just never warmed up to them. i have extensive epxeriance with a meostar.(though, never a short dot)
if i do anything ill go to a fixed 10x with a doctor as with the acog im getting between .75 and 1" groups. that said im super happy with the acog... plus i dont pay retail pricing. i got my acog used for stupid cheap.
bah! and you show a 416...
i was thoroughly dissapointed with the 416. the recoil impulse was somewhat of a letdown. too much. on full auto it liked to hop like a SBR 6.8 IMO.i think the next project is gonna be a surgeon magnum action.... that said.. i still need to finish my bulgarian aks-74u (krinkov) plus i have 2 ar pistold recievers that need to be built and a dream of a super obnoxious ar10 pistol.
09-11-2008, 02:27 PM
#71
PS: I'm thinking of putting an ACOG onto my AK-47. The only thing that makes the AK not so accurate is the fact that the sights SUCK! Way too much eye relief and far too loose. I can still group nicely at 100 yards, but would be FAR better with an optic, and since the ACOG pwns all I figure why not?
i can slap on any high end optic on my AK and i'm pretty sure it will not outshoot an AR variant.
09-11-2008, 10:46 PM
#73
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4177898 637995 10S
Posts: 35
Car Info: '07 OBP STi
OP - I posted this over at IWSTI. It's a bit long, but decent read with good points. We've actually got a few folks that hit up the Livermore Rod & Gun Club last month and we're hoping to make it a regular thing...
My apologies in advance for the formatting.
Half decent article I read in Sept. 08's Combat Handguns magazine. I OCR'd it, so hopefully it reads ok.
USE ENOUGH GUN *BUT NOT TOO MUCH
Get the right balance among accuracy, reliability, power, controllability, penetration, user-friendliness!
By Chuck Taylor
Standing in a gun shop looking at the array of handguns currently available can be one of the most bewildering experiences a novice interested in self-defense can face. There are guns of all sizes, shapes, calibers, designs, configurations and even colors. Trying to decide which would be best for your needs can be a stressful and confusing task.
But there's more to it than that. A wrong decision can place you in more danger than necessary if you find yourself in a life-threatening situation. Moreover, it can cause your criminal and civil liability hazards to skyrocket to catastrophic levels.
First, it's important to understand the self-defense mission, because it's the nucleus of the whole issue and thus, preempts everything else. The purpose of a defensive handgun is to provide its user with the means to respond successfully to an attack, bringing the altercation to an end quickly and with as few shots fired as possible.
In order for it to do this, it must be sufficiently accurate to place center hits on a variety of human targets that vary in size and shape at ranges from arm's length to 50 meters. Extreme (target shooting) accuracy is not needed, but for best results, it must be capable of placing hits on volleyball at 50 meters and a tennis ball at 20 meters.
The tight tolerances required to produce target-class accuracy can also make the weapon less reliable because they eliminate room for foreign matter to accumulate under field conditions, causing malfunctions. This fact alone eliminates any kind of target pistol from further consideration. Above all, a self-defense handgun must always function, under the widest possible variety of environmental conditions.
If it does not, whatever positive characteristics it has becomes irrelevant.
Besides, accuracy is not the result of tight fit; it's the result of all parts maintaining a stable relationship with one another. I have many self-loading pistols that will rattle when briskly shaken. Yet, they still produce far better accuracy than I am capable of, especially under any kind of stress.
The weapon must also be sufficiently powerful to provide the best potential for quickly incapacitating the target (stopping power). Lethality per se is not the issue here; all guns are lethal. Bringing the fight to a rapid conclusion in your favor is the issue and it's accomplished by rendering your assailant incapable of further deadly threat. A lethal wound may not quickly incapacitate, whereas an immediately incapacitating wound may not ultimately be lethal. If you had to bet your life on one of the two, which would you choose?
The importance of accuracy, functional reliability and power are relatively easy to understand, but there is more to consider. In addition, the gun must also be controllable in fast shooting situations (the norm for self-defense encounters). Much is said and written about accuracy, mechani*cal reliability and power, but if the gun is so powerful as to be uncontrollable, all three quickly become academic.
High intensity cartridges like the .41 or.44 Mag should be avoided, as should certain .357 Mag loads, particularly in lighter, smaller guns. I love Dirty Harry as much as anyone, but movie machismo notwithstanding; even he used what he called "light specials" (.44 Special) in his 6.5-inch*barreled Smith & Wesson M29.
Question Of Penetration
Another important item to consider is penetration, or more correctly, over-penetration. Again, high-intensity cartridges like the .41, .44, .500 S&W, and certain .357 Mags should be avoided. Some cartridges are intended for hunting, not fighting an armed attacker, thus their characteristics are somewhat different. Cartridges that perform best for tactical use exhibit only enough penetration for the bullet to reach vital organs, expending the vast majority of their energy in the process. Ideally, the bullet shouldn't even exit, but one never knows how thick a target might be, from what angle the shot must be made, or whether or not intermediary obstacles might be involved. Reality dictates that if the bullet does exit, it's pretty much spent and won't become a downrange hazard in the process.
Remember that the more penetrative the cartridge, the less of its inherent energy it expends in the target. Penetration is not only influenced by cartridge power, but by bullet shape and composition, too. This means that with the wrong loads, even non-high-intensity cartridges can be over-penetrative. The 9mm, for example, has a well-deserved reputation for excessive penetration with 115- or 124-grain military-type FMJ ammo. Furthermore, it also has a deserved reputation for poor stopping power. Once, again, penetration ability beyond what is needed for the bullet to reach vital organs means reduced stopping power. With a FMJ bullet, even the .38 Special, as well as the .357 SIG, .40 or 10 mm, can pose a serious over-penetration threat, so choose your ammunition and bullet type carefully.
You'll notice that I didn't include .45ACP FMJ 230-grain in that statement. As surprising as it may be to some, it doesn't over-penetrate. In most instances, it remains in the body, but when it exits, it's usually found lying on the floor or ground within a short distance of the target.
This is by intent, for the .45ACP is one of the few handgun cartridges designed from the outset for use against human targets. Thus, the need to expend as much of the bullet's inherent energy in the target was carefully factored in.
In fact, one of the reasons the .45ACP has been and continues to remain so popular is because it's a big bullet that punches a big hole (thus creating a larger permanent wound channel) even if it doesn't expand. If by virtue of a well-designed JHP it does expand, it just works that much better.
Barrel length affects bullet velocity and thus affects not only power, but penetration as well. The .357 Mags with barrel lengths of less than 6 inches have a long-standing reputation for over-penetration with JHP bullets because the velocities they produce aren't sufficient to provide reliable expan*sion. Unfortunately, in such instances, enough velocity is produced that the non-expanded bullet sails right through the target and whistles off downrange.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that under such conditions, stopping power, a critical factor in self-defense situations, is reduced substantially. On the other hand, the fact that if you shoot it, you own it means that criminal and civil liability are increased to unnecessarily high levels, a bad idea all the way around.
Last, let's consider what kind of handgun, double* action revolver or some kind of self-loader is best. Well, there is no "best" per se. Both are proven designs and have been in widespread use for many decades, thus proving their worth. The question is which one works best for your needs.
It might be a small-framed snubbie .38 Special or a larger-framed .357. It could be a standard-sized, compact or even sub-compact self-loader, or utilize a single-action (****ed and locked) 9mm or .45ACP, a double-action (DA) Beretta .40or double-action-only (DAO) Glock or Springfield Armory XD. There are many possibilities, and you'll have to consider them all and determine what's best for you.
Forget firepower, meaning a large capacity magazine, because it really isn't important. Handgun fights are nearly always concluded in heart- stopping timeframes with only a few shots fired, so the extra ammo gives no particular advantage. Never select a given type of handgun based solely upon its ammunition capacity. Of far more importance is the way the gun feels in your hand, how it points for you and how well its controls can be manipulated under stress-"user *friendliness," if you will.
Six Elements Of Handgun Performance
As you can now see, there are more issues to consider when pondering your choice of defensive handgun and cartridge than what meets the eye. You've got to strike a balance between all of these factors: user-friendliness, accuracy, reliability, power, controllabil*ity and penetration. To whatever degree these six elements are out of balance, efficiency deteriorates.
Still, it doesn't end there. A general-purpose defensive handgun is a different breed of cat than a special* purpose defensive handgun; so stop, take a deep breath and consider your needs before doing anything else.
Small caliber cartridges lack stopping power and are poor choices for general *purpose defense, but for specialized (which also means limited) tactical applications, they can be entirely suitable. It's just a matter of clearly defining the circumstances under which you would need a weapon before proceeding further.
When you make your choices, consider them carefully, keeping in mind a clear understanding of your needs. Doing so will save you a lot of consternation, confusion, time, energy, money and maybe, just maybe, ultimately your life!
My apologies in advance for the formatting.
Half decent article I read in Sept. 08's Combat Handguns magazine. I OCR'd it, so hopefully it reads ok.
USE ENOUGH GUN *BUT NOT TOO MUCH
Get the right balance among accuracy, reliability, power, controllability, penetration, user-friendliness!
By Chuck Taylor
Standing in a gun shop looking at the array of handguns currently available can be one of the most bewildering experiences a novice interested in self-defense can face. There are guns of all sizes, shapes, calibers, designs, configurations and even colors. Trying to decide which would be best for your needs can be a stressful and confusing task.
But there's more to it than that. A wrong decision can place you in more danger than necessary if you find yourself in a life-threatening situation. Moreover, it can cause your criminal and civil liability hazards to skyrocket to catastrophic levels.
First, it's important to understand the self-defense mission, because it's the nucleus of the whole issue and thus, preempts everything else. The purpose of a defensive handgun is to provide its user with the means to respond successfully to an attack, bringing the altercation to an end quickly and with as few shots fired as possible.
In order for it to do this, it must be sufficiently accurate to place center hits on a variety of human targets that vary in size and shape at ranges from arm's length to 50 meters. Extreme (target shooting) accuracy is not needed, but for best results, it must be capable of placing hits on volleyball at 50 meters and a tennis ball at 20 meters.
The tight tolerances required to produce target-class accuracy can also make the weapon less reliable because they eliminate room for foreign matter to accumulate under field conditions, causing malfunctions. This fact alone eliminates any kind of target pistol from further consideration. Above all, a self-defense handgun must always function, under the widest possible variety of environmental conditions.
If it does not, whatever positive characteristics it has becomes irrelevant.
Besides, accuracy is not the result of tight fit; it's the result of all parts maintaining a stable relationship with one another. I have many self-loading pistols that will rattle when briskly shaken. Yet, they still produce far better accuracy than I am capable of, especially under any kind of stress.
The weapon must also be sufficiently powerful to provide the best potential for quickly incapacitating the target (stopping power). Lethality per se is not the issue here; all guns are lethal. Bringing the fight to a rapid conclusion in your favor is the issue and it's accomplished by rendering your assailant incapable of further deadly threat. A lethal wound may not quickly incapacitate, whereas an immediately incapacitating wound may not ultimately be lethal. If you had to bet your life on one of the two, which would you choose?
The importance of accuracy, functional reliability and power are relatively easy to understand, but there is more to consider. In addition, the gun must also be controllable in fast shooting situations (the norm for self-defense encounters). Much is said and written about accuracy, mechani*cal reliability and power, but if the gun is so powerful as to be uncontrollable, all three quickly become academic.
High intensity cartridges like the .41 or.44 Mag should be avoided, as should certain .357 Mag loads, particularly in lighter, smaller guns. I love Dirty Harry as much as anyone, but movie machismo notwithstanding; even he used what he called "light specials" (.44 Special) in his 6.5-inch*barreled Smith & Wesson M29.
Question Of Penetration
Another important item to consider is penetration, or more correctly, over-penetration. Again, high-intensity cartridges like the .41, .44, .500 S&W, and certain .357 Mags should be avoided. Some cartridges are intended for hunting, not fighting an armed attacker, thus their characteristics are somewhat different. Cartridges that perform best for tactical use exhibit only enough penetration for the bullet to reach vital organs, expending the vast majority of their energy in the process. Ideally, the bullet shouldn't even exit, but one never knows how thick a target might be, from what angle the shot must be made, or whether or not intermediary obstacles might be involved. Reality dictates that if the bullet does exit, it's pretty much spent and won't become a downrange hazard in the process.
Remember that the more penetrative the cartridge, the less of its inherent energy it expends in the target. Penetration is not only influenced by cartridge power, but by bullet shape and composition, too. This means that with the wrong loads, even non-high-intensity cartridges can be over-penetrative. The 9mm, for example, has a well-deserved reputation for excessive penetration with 115- or 124-grain military-type FMJ ammo. Furthermore, it also has a deserved reputation for poor stopping power. Once, again, penetration ability beyond what is needed for the bullet to reach vital organs means reduced stopping power. With a FMJ bullet, even the .38 Special, as well as the .357 SIG, .40 or 10 mm, can pose a serious over-penetration threat, so choose your ammunition and bullet type carefully.
You'll notice that I didn't include .45ACP FMJ 230-grain in that statement. As surprising as it may be to some, it doesn't over-penetrate. In most instances, it remains in the body, but when it exits, it's usually found lying on the floor or ground within a short distance of the target.
This is by intent, for the .45ACP is one of the few handgun cartridges designed from the outset for use against human targets. Thus, the need to expend as much of the bullet's inherent energy in the target was carefully factored in.
In fact, one of the reasons the .45ACP has been and continues to remain so popular is because it's a big bullet that punches a big hole (thus creating a larger permanent wound channel) even if it doesn't expand. If by virtue of a well-designed JHP it does expand, it just works that much better.
Barrel length affects bullet velocity and thus affects not only power, but penetration as well. The .357 Mags with barrel lengths of less than 6 inches have a long-standing reputation for over-penetration with JHP bullets because the velocities they produce aren't sufficient to provide reliable expan*sion. Unfortunately, in such instances, enough velocity is produced that the non-expanded bullet sails right through the target and whistles off downrange.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that under such conditions, stopping power, a critical factor in self-defense situations, is reduced substantially. On the other hand, the fact that if you shoot it, you own it means that criminal and civil liability are increased to unnecessarily high levels, a bad idea all the way around.
Last, let's consider what kind of handgun, double* action revolver or some kind of self-loader is best. Well, there is no "best" per se. Both are proven designs and have been in widespread use for many decades, thus proving their worth. The question is which one works best for your needs.
It might be a small-framed snubbie .38 Special or a larger-framed .357. It could be a standard-sized, compact or even sub-compact self-loader, or utilize a single-action (****ed and locked) 9mm or .45ACP, a double-action (DA) Beretta .40or double-action-only (DAO) Glock or Springfield Armory XD. There are many possibilities, and you'll have to consider them all and determine what's best for you.
Forget firepower, meaning a large capacity magazine, because it really isn't important. Handgun fights are nearly always concluded in heart- stopping timeframes with only a few shots fired, so the extra ammo gives no particular advantage. Never select a given type of handgun based solely upon its ammunition capacity. Of far more importance is the way the gun feels in your hand, how it points for you and how well its controls can be manipulated under stress-"user *friendliness," if you will.
Six Elements Of Handgun Performance
As you can now see, there are more issues to consider when pondering your choice of defensive handgun and cartridge than what meets the eye. You've got to strike a balance between all of these factors: user-friendliness, accuracy, reliability, power, controllabil*ity and penetration. To whatever degree these six elements are out of balance, efficiency deteriorates.
Still, it doesn't end there. A general-purpose defensive handgun is a different breed of cat than a special* purpose defensive handgun; so stop, take a deep breath and consider your needs before doing anything else.
Small caliber cartridges lack stopping power and are poor choices for general *purpose defense, but for specialized (which also means limited) tactical applications, they can be entirely suitable. It's just a matter of clearly defining the circumstances under which you would need a weapon before proceeding further.
When you make your choices, consider them carefully, keeping in mind a clear understanding of your needs. Doing so will save you a lot of consternation, confusion, time, energy, money and maybe, just maybe, ultimately your life!
09-13-2008, 03:25 PM
#75
Friendly Neighborhood Ogre
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: www.gunatics.com
Posts: 19,930
Car Info: GUNATICS.COM
People always give me crap about having so many pistols, rifles, and shotgun because to them a gun is a gun, but as you know that is a total ignorant generalization.
All my guns serve their own purpose for different scenarios, from an AK-47 to an M1A SOCOM II, from a Glock 17 with 33rnd 9mm capacity to a tricked out Glock 21 in .45ACP. The Glock 17 being a small 9mm round but with insane capacity, or if you need a "Babe Ruth", or "Big Hitter", thats when you choose the Glock 21 (or whatever .45 you have/prefer). I'd almost always pick my Glock 21 for most situations. I have a bunch of other pistols that are between the two, but those are those are the main pistols I'd use if I had to... My 1911 is basically a novelty gun and the only one that doesn't serve as a purpose gun minus for target shooting.
Damn, I'm just rambling on and one in every thread I visit, lol. Sorry guys
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