Legal question (aka I got a ticket)
10-20-2003, 11:59 PM
#16
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I use my cell phone time. My subie's clock gains about 4 minutes a month, so I can't rely on that. Given that the phone gets its clock from the network, it should be reasonably accurate.
- I guess this doesn't help if the cop's watch is off, but I think a judge would believe a cell phone over a watch.
- I guess this doesn't help if the cop's watch is off, but I think a judge would believe a cell phone over a watch.
10-21-2003, 09:23 AM
#19
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you know.. after thinking about it... many ppl has got some BS ticket.. what if someone actually collect all these BS ticket data and file a complain to the gov't.. do a protest or something.. what do you think will happen? (probably nothing.but at least they know ppl are starting to feel sick of the CHIPS.)
10-21-2003, 09:29 AM
#20
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You could argue the watch, but the 3 or 4 computers CHP uses to link mobile telecomunications (each with it's own clock) were likely not off. You'd probably be better off to claim you really thought it was 8:30 and you had no intention of breaking the law, and if you did (cause you really thought it was 8:30) your really sorry and you hope that the court would see that you really did check your watch and had no intention of breaking the law and you really didn't want to take up anyones time or endanger the cop on a useless stop on a busy highway when statistics show that that is a dangerous thing to do especially when the cop could be sucking down free do-nuts if your watch hadn't been off by 4 minutes...(maybe not the last part)
10-21-2003, 09:42 AM
#21
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My guess is that you won't win this one. It's like a red light ticket--it's your word against the cop's word. In most cases a judge will believe the cop. A sympathetic judge might reduce the fine a bit, but there are plenty who will enforce the law as it's written.
10-21-2003, 09:45 AM
#22
I'm going to attempt the "I haven't had a moving violation in over 10 years and would never purposefully try and break the law" approach.
"I drive this same route every day. Some days I carpool, because I care about our environment, judge. On this particular day my carpooler was busy and so I was driving solo. I waited until 8:30am and then pulled into the carpool lane. I passed the officer about 15 seconds after I had pulled into the lane. He pulled in behind me and motioned with 2 fingers in the air. I looked down, double checked the time, now 8:31. The officer then signalled for me to pull over I showed my watch to the officer, asking why I was pulled over... Judge, I am stunned that the US system of law is going to fine me $271 for, what the officer argues, is a difference of 6 minutes"
"I drive this same route every day. Some days I carpool, because I care about our environment, judge. On this particular day my carpooler was busy and so I was driving solo. I waited until 8:30am and then pulled into the carpool lane. I passed the officer about 15 seconds after I had pulled into the lane. He pulled in behind me and motioned with 2 fingers in the air. I looked down, double checked the time, now 8:31. The officer then signalled for me to pull over I showed my watch to the officer, asking why I was pulled over... Judge, I am stunned that the US system of law is going to fine me $271 for, what the officer argues, is a difference of 6 minutes"
10-21-2003, 12:07 PM
#23
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I'm going to give you a frank critique of your argument. I'm a lawyer so I think playing devil's advocate will help you out.
First, you gotta realize that a large majority of judges are going to find you guilty if they think you were in the car pool land at 8:29:59. Your subjective intent does not matter. An analogy would be if your speedo was miscalibrated and you got clocked at a speed over the limit. If you say I didn't think I was speeding the judge isn't really gonna care.
You need to convince the judge that your watch said the right time. Most people know if their watch is slow or fast, you need to tell the judge that your watch, and not the Chip's watch, said the correct time. This will create some doubt, and doubt is your friend.
Second, cut out the stuff about never purposefully trying to break the law (the judge is going to think "alright, so this guy has never gone over the speed limit or jaywalked, cmon), caring about the environment and being stunned about the US system of law. It's not relevant to the case and it sounds like you're kissing up or being dramatic. You should treat judges with respect, but not seem like a sycophant.
Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but I'm just trying to help.
First, you gotta realize that a large majority of judges are going to find you guilty if they think you were in the car pool land at 8:29:59. Your subjective intent does not matter. An analogy would be if your speedo was miscalibrated and you got clocked at a speed over the limit. If you say I didn't think I was speeding the judge isn't really gonna care.
You need to convince the judge that your watch said the right time. Most people know if their watch is slow or fast, you need to tell the judge that your watch, and not the Chip's watch, said the correct time. This will create some doubt, and doubt is your friend.
Second, cut out the stuff about never purposefully trying to break the law (the judge is going to think "alright, so this guy has never gone over the speed limit or jaywalked, cmon), caring about the environment and being stunned about the US system of law. It's not relevant to the case and it sounds like you're kissing up or being dramatic. You should treat judges with respect, but not seem like a sycophant.
Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but I'm just trying to help.
10-21-2003, 12:28 PM
#24
Soya, thanks for the input. Yes, I was actually being dramatic. I've spent more than my fair share of time inside a courtroom. Unfortunately, not on the good side of the room. But I know I would never actually try and pull sarcasm or dramatize anything to a judge.
Your points are valid. Wether it's 8:26 am or 8:29 am, it is in fact still illegal.
Now do I need to prove that my watch was correct and the officer's was incorrect or is it enough to just create doubt on the accuracy of his watch? I highly doubt that CHP officers "calibrate" their watches. If he drove a sedan I know he would have a laptop at his disposal that is probably synched to the main office and that it is also synched to an atomic clock or something similar. But this officer was driving a motorcycle and motioned to his watch when we were discussing what time it was. I'm hoping the judge will just throw the case out but I need a semi-good argument to back me up. If nothing else, I could get the fine reduced.
And no, you weren't too harsh. I knew there was a lawyer floating around on these forums somewhere....
Your points are valid. Wether it's 8:26 am or 8:29 am, it is in fact still illegal.
Now do I need to prove that my watch was correct and the officer's was incorrect or is it enough to just create doubt on the accuracy of his watch? I highly doubt that CHP officers "calibrate" their watches. If he drove a sedan I know he would have a laptop at his disposal that is probably synched to the main office and that it is also synched to an atomic clock or something similar. But this officer was driving a motorcycle and motioned to his watch when we were discussing what time it was. I'm hoping the judge will just throw the case out but I need a semi-good argument to back me up. If nothing else, I could get the fine reduced.
And no, you weren't too harsh. I knew there was a lawyer floating around on these forums somewhere....
10-21-2003, 12:39 PM
#25
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3 important points:
- my coworker asks (who currently has a point just about to come off
) "Is it worth fighting?" That is, will this put a moving violation point on your record that will raise your insurance rates enough over the next 3 years to drastically cost more than the CP lane violation of $271?
- Its a he-said-he-said thing. The State has no burden of proof. You're guilty until you can prove yourself innocent, as Soya said, by casting doubt on the cop... which you can't. I think the only way to do this would've been to take a picture of the cop holding your watch
Goddamn, how does this happen in a land that has the US Constitution. What the hell 
- Like people said, the cop has more accurate timekeeping gadgets than you do. In "Reality" you broke the law. However unintentional, its a fact. You're not going to court to argue your case, you're trying to argue for mercy. And here's where I really agree with Soya. Its not a murder trial and there were no special circumstances... if you had an injured person or a lady giving birth, the judge would probabaly laugh at the cop and let you off. But you made a mistake, however innocently and now the state wants your paycheck.
jason
- my coworker asks (who currently has a point just about to come off
) "Is it worth fighting?" That is, will this put a moving violation point on your record that will raise your insurance rates enough over the next 3 years to drastically cost more than the CP lane violation of $271?- Its a he-said-he-said thing. The State has no burden of proof. You're guilty until you can prove yourself innocent, as Soya said, by casting doubt on the cop... which you can't. I think the only way to do this would've been to take a picture of the cop holding your watch
Goddamn, how does this happen in a land that has the US Constitution. What the hell - Like people said, the cop has more accurate timekeeping gadgets than you do. In "Reality" you broke the law. However unintentional, its a fact. You're not going to court to argue your case, you're trying to argue for mercy. And here's where I really agree with Soya. Its not a murder trial and there were no special circumstances... if you had an injured person or a lady giving birth, the judge would probabaly laugh at the cop and let you off. But you made a mistake, however innocently and now the state wants your paycheck.
jason
Last edited by mmboost; 10-21-2003 at 12:44 PM.
10-21-2003, 12:56 PM
#27
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Wrong. Fighting a non-moving violation does not result in getting a moving violation. Find out what your co-worker smokes, then tell me where to get it.
You either win, or you lose and either have to pay $$$ or do community service hours.
Back in H.S., I had a contact who would write-off tons of community service hours, so I never had to pay a dime!
You either win, or you lose and either have to pay $$$ or do community service hours.
Back in H.S., I had a contact who would write-off tons of community service hours, so I never had to pay a dime!
Originally posted by mmboost
- my coworker asks (who currently has a point just about to come off ) "Is it worth fighting?" That is, will this put a moving violation point on your record that will raise your insurance rates enough over the next 3 years to drastically cost more than the CP lane violation of $271? - jason
- my coworker asks (who currently has a point just about to come off
) "Is it worth fighting?" That is, will this put a moving violation point on your record that will raise your insurance rates enough over the next 3 years to drastically cost more than the CP lane violation of $271? - jason
10-21-2003, 01:24 PM
#28
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I would make these points. 1) No moving violations in 10 years (which gives you some credibility) 2) You make the commute every day and sometimes in the car pool lane (to show familiarity with the rules) 3) You believe your watch was accurate.
You have no idea what the Chip will say. He might say that he calls POPCORN every morning to check the time or he might not. You just need to make it sound like your watch was correct. I personally set my watch to the atomic clock and check it every so often to see if it's accurate. That sounds like a credible story to me (note: I am not reccommending that you perjure yourself).
Also make sure you know what the sign says. If it says carpool lane is active from 6 AM to 8:30 AM then saying you were in it at 8:30 makes you guilty.
You have no idea what the Chip will say. He might say that he calls POPCORN every morning to check the time or he might not. You just need to make it sound like your watch was correct. I personally set my watch to the atomic clock and check it every so often to see if it's accurate. That sounds like a credible story to me (note: I am not reccommending that you perjure yourself).
Also make sure you know what the sign says. If it says carpool lane is active from 6 AM to 8:30 AM then saying you were in it at 8:30 makes you guilty.