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Immigrants, "Americans" and the American Dream...
08-18-2008, 04:53 PM
#1
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Immigrants, "Americans" and the American Dream...
Some threads lately have been popping up around here and other places and some topics in politics have been just making me insane.
So, the question I have is, why are so many long time immigrants (we're talking like 5+ generations, sometimes MUCH more) STILL in debt, still paying off mortgages and don't own land fully, yet, people like my dad can show up to the bay area in 1977 with a suitcase, $4, and today have put his son through college, have no mortgage (2 homes) and mom/dad working to pay basically food, utilities, and property taxes/other taxes??
I mean, I hear people complain about immigrants left and right, yet, we are ALL immigrants if we go back far enough, it's just that many people who live here feel they are more American than others. Why is it that I see SO many people who are just as poor as their grandparents, and their grandparents... so on and so forth, still renting, or not owning any homes?
I mean, i understand that in American culture that it's typical for people to move out on their own when they are 18, etc... is that the reason? Cause family's don't stick together under 1 roof helping each other get out of debt faster, enabling better lives for their offspring? I dunno, cause a 30yr mortgage means you should be able to own the home after 30years, but I don't really see it happening around me.
So how can so many immigrants make it, have that American dream, and so many so called "Americans" as they put it, haven't yet? I know a lot of people who have worked hard and aren't really in any real debt. Yes, I shouldn't consider mortgages debt, but basically it is a form of debt.
(I hope folks don't take this the wrong way, I feel this is a legitimate issue/topic)
So, the question I have is, why are so many long time immigrants (we're talking like 5+ generations, sometimes MUCH more) STILL in debt, still paying off mortgages and don't own land fully, yet, people like my dad can show up to the bay area in 1977 with a suitcase, $4, and today have put his son through college, have no mortgage (2 homes) and mom/dad working to pay basically food, utilities, and property taxes/other taxes??
I mean, I hear people complain about immigrants left and right, yet, we are ALL immigrants if we go back far enough, it's just that many people who live here feel they are more American than others. Why is it that I see SO many people who are just as poor as their grandparents, and their grandparents... so on and so forth, still renting, or not owning any homes?
I mean, i understand that in American culture that it's typical for people to move out on their own when they are 18, etc... is that the reason? Cause family's don't stick together under 1 roof helping each other get out of debt faster, enabling better lives for their offspring? I dunno, cause a 30yr mortgage means you should be able to own the home after 30years, but I don't really see it happening around me.
So how can so many immigrants make it, have that American dream, and so many so called "Americans" as they put it, haven't yet? I know a lot of people who have worked hard and aren't really in any real debt. Yes, I shouldn't consider mortgages debt, but basically it is a form of debt.
(I hope folks don't take this the wrong way, I feel this is a legitimate issue/topic)
08-18-2008, 05:03 PM
#4
So how can so many immigrants make it, have that American dream, and so many so called "Americans" as they put it, haven't yet? I know a lot of people who have worked hard and aren't really in any real debt. Yes, I shouldn't consider mortgages debt, but basically it is a form of debt.
but the general population of the US who arent immigrants, or of immigrant descent ( you know, latin/asian/european ) are generally lazier. there, i said it.
how many white ( and i will include black ) people do you see sitting at Home Depot, looking for work. Now, how many white ( and again, ill include black ) people do you see in the welfare/foodstamp/help my lazy *** line? how many white/black people do you see working three or four jobs? that should be the barometer right there.
and before i get any "Oh, now Rau is just being racist!!" comments, listen to me. i did not grow up here my whole life. yes i was born here, but i grew up in Germany. lived there until 1986. came back here. now, before you say "thats not growing up there", yes it is. i dont know how to explain it, but living there it was easier to discern the lazy people from the hardworking people, mainly because i didnt see a single lazy person there ( living in Wiesbaden )
for some reason, latin/asians/europeans are instilled on the hardworking/succesful life ethic sooner than here. matter of fact, i dont even see that at all here.........
08-18-2008, 05:05 PM
#5
i dont think language has anything to do with how hard a person works. our mechanic here does not speak a word of english, but will work his *** off twelve hours a day. i have to force him to go to lunch. find me a white/black guy that will do that
08-18-2008, 05:10 PM
#8
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Seems sort of cynical.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
Last edited by Superglue WRX; 08-18-2008 at 05:12 PM.
08-18-2008, 05:14 PM
#9
Seems sort of cynical.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
08-18-2008, 05:18 PM
#10
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Man, i hope i dont get flamed for this.........
but the general population of the US who arent immigrants, or of immigrant descent ( you know, latin/asian/european ) are generally lazier. there, i said it.
how many white ( and i will include black ) people do you see sitting at Home Depot, looking for work. Now, how many white ( and again, ill include black ) people do you see in the welfare/foodstamp/help my lazy *** line? how many white/black people do you see working three or four jobs? that should be the barometer right there.
and before i get any "Oh, now Rau is just being racist!!" comments, listen to me. i did not grow up here my whole life. yes i was born here, but i grew up in Germany. lived there until 1986. came back here. now, before you say "thats not growing up there", yes it is. i dont know how to explain it, but living there it was easier to discern the lazy people from the hardworking people, mainly because i didnt see a single lazy person there ( living in Wiesbaden )
for some reason, latin/asians/europeans are instilled on the hardworking/succesful life ethic sooner than here. matter of fact, i dont even see that at all here.........
but the general population of the US who arent immigrants, or of immigrant descent ( you know, latin/asian/european ) are generally lazier. there, i said it.
how many white ( and i will include black ) people do you see sitting at Home Depot, looking for work. Now, how many white ( and again, ill include black ) people do you see in the welfare/foodstamp/help my lazy *** line? how many white/black people do you see working three or four jobs? that should be the barometer right there.
and before i get any "Oh, now Rau is just being racist!!" comments, listen to me. i did not grow up here my whole life. yes i was born here, but i grew up in Germany. lived there until 1986. came back here. now, before you say "thats not growing up there", yes it is. i dont know how to explain it, but living there it was easier to discern the lazy people from the hardworking people, mainly because i didnt see a single lazy person there ( living in Wiesbaden )
for some reason, latin/asians/europeans are instilled on the hardworking/succesful life ethic sooner than here. matter of fact, i dont even see that at all here.........
I dunno. I don't see that as the case before the 80's/90's. What about all the people before then. I think in someways homeownership was MUCH MUCH higher in the past, and I mean complete ownership.
Could the consumerism that started to soar in the 80's cause this? What leads people to make such poor decisions in their lives like buying TVs/Computers/Cars and other crap over putting a little extra down on their house or mortgage payments?
Lord know I've ****ed up huge in the past. I'm paying for that now. I'm on track to be better off, and I still don't take money from my parents, no matter how much they offer. I'm not my brother, I want to correct my own mistakes. I want to be like my dad, I want to own my own home completely by the time I'm 45 as well. I'm going to have to start this process much later, and I'm going to have to work hard as well. It's difficult, but I don't get why so many others have had decades and decades, but have never moved up the ladder.
08-18-2008, 05:23 PM
#12
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Seems sort of cynical.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
Not everyone has the capacity, education, or ambition to go from rags to riches. Just because the opportunity is there doesn't make it a sure thing. Financial stability takes self discipline and plain hard work.
The oportunity for success is out there, but if you're starting out with no money and no education, something as simple sounding as owning a home takes someone who is hard working and very goal oriented. Not everyone has those traits. Not everyone feels like they have to own a home, yet alone get a college degree. Some people are either content with the way things are, or possibly just finds those goals too difficult to achieve and therefor just a hopeless pipe dream.
Why wouldn't they want to be on the track to wealth, so they family lives better as each generation goes by?
I mean, I understand what you are saying, but I fail to see the point of the post. I mean what you said doesn't really seem like an answer, cause I just don't see anyone who would turn down the opportunity to own a home or become financially stable.
Oh, and the opportunity is there all the time. This is the land of opportunity, and I'm sorry, but I just don't see how anyone can say that they never had opportunities. I see uneducated immigrants make it, most folks in the US have at least better than that with having made through HS.
08-18-2008, 05:25 PM
#13
My sociology prof told my class that people do not move up or down on the social ladder often (very rarely does it hapen). It is very rare for someone to go from rags to riches or riches to rags. He also mentioned that whatever your parents are doing and making you will probably doing and making the samething.
He also threw out some numbers out there but this class was about 3 years ago and I forgot all that. Another thing he mentioned was 2/10 people in our class will graduate college.
He also threw out some numbers out there but this class was about 3 years ago and I forgot all that. Another thing he mentioned was 2/10 people in our class will graduate college.
08-18-2008, 05:27 PM
#14
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I know what you're saying. I see it too, but, just not as bad I saw it in the 90s. Maybe I don't see cause the hip hop/rap people from the 90s were talking about how life was horrible, and the artists of today talk about their Bentleys and mansions.
For any kid who thinks they can be the next 50 Cent or whatever, they need to have realty beaten into them. That's not reality, those videos. These rappers today are a joke.
C'mon folks. Lets get deep into this. I want to know how you feel, and what you think about the American Dream.
For any kid who thinks they can be the next 50 Cent or whatever, they need to have realty beaten into them. That's not reality, those videos. These rappers today are a joke.
C'mon folks. Lets get deep into this. I want to know how you feel, and what you think about the American Dream.
08-18-2008, 05:30 PM
#15
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My sociology prof told my class that people do not move up or down on the social ladder often (very rarely does it hapen). It is very rare for someone to go from rags to riches or riches to rags. He also mentioned that whatever your parents are doing and making you will probably doing and making the samething.
He also threw out some numbers out there but this class was about 3 years ago and I forgot all that. Another thing he mentioned was 2/10 people in our class will graduate college.
He also threw out some numbers out there but this class was about 3 years ago and I forgot all that. Another thing he mentioned was 2/10 people in our class will graduate college.
I see many who make it to college get through it. Its the ones who don't make it, or don't WANT to make it, through HS who get stuck. In the Indian community the parents are there to spoil and be the safety net, which ****ing disgustingly pathetic, but for most others it's not like that. They will typically turn to crime or work jobs that don't really get them anywhere, and most of this is cause they don't really want to go anywhere.
Could Walter be right? Is it just laziness?