I smell fraud
04-02-2008, 03:36 AM
#31
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Alright after reading all 19 pages on wrxmodders, here's what i think:
My End Conclusion:
I don’t think this guy committed arson, hell the car was already full of accelerant (gasoline) so he wouldn’t have needed to bring any. And accelerant leaves a trail that can be easily identified by an expert arson investigator. I think he did some bad wiring which caught fire and spread. Had he committed arson, there is no way he would be posting about it online. You would want it unnoticed because the steaks are HUGE. Lots of money, jail time, etc.
*Now for those of you who want to now why this is what I think, read the following:
His Story:
Orange flames came down in to the driver’s side of the cabin from the dash area.
What Makes a Subaru, a Subaru:
Aluminum: [Light metal used in body of car.]
Copper: [Used for wiring throughout automobile.]
Iron Ore: [Used to make steel for the frame and engine of the auto.]
Petroleum: [From petroleum we produce plastics (used for the body and interior), rubber tires, paint, synthetic fabrics, gasoline and lubricating oils. Also to make electricity used in the production of the auto.]
Laminated Glass: Windshield [There are three layers--two outer glass sheets with a urethane plastic center bonded in-between. The plastic inner layer reduces the chance of occupant penetration in a crash, and keeps the glass from separating into flying shards. Some side and back glass is laminated as well.]
Tempered Glass: Side and Rear Windows [This means that a solid sheet of glass is cooled quickly in the manufacturing process, which creates a different hardness in the outside and center of the window. As a result, the glass shatters into square pebbles rather than sharp shards in an accident. Risk of laceration and abrasion is reduced.]
The Facts:
Petroleum Fuel Autoignition Temperature: 475°F
Petroleum Fuel Burning Temperature: 1650°F with fluctuations measured of up to 2280°F.
Aluminum Melting Point: 1220.58 °F
Glass Melting Point: about 3,000°F
Steel Melting Point: 2500°F
Conclusion:
If a fire started due to a wiring issue in the front of the car and eventually spread throughout the car, catching all of the interior components on fire to at least 475°F, then it could have been able to ignite the fuel in the fuel tank without direct flame impingement if it received oxygen.
The fuel in the pressurized tank would have to have the heat from the cabin fire AND oxygen to burn unless an open flame could get to it and cause the gasoline to emit vapors, allowing the vapors to catch fire. So, oxygen found it’s way to the preheated 475°F fuel and it went up OR a flame found it’s way to the tank. Either way, it ignited.
Looking at the passenger side doors in the pictures of the WRX, you’ll notice white scorching a little on the front door and tons more on the rear doors, where it manages to go all the way through the door. You can also see it on the rear pillars and the roof. This is indicative of the high temperatures of the fire. Black smoke residue is indicative of burn patterns, and not necessarily where something burned. The majority of this fire occurred in the rear of the cabin, however it could have easily started up front like the guy said.
Once the fire was able to ignite fuel, the flames would burn above 1650°F, melting the aluminum body panels, trunk, and STi spoiler. And the flames were rising, which is why I think it melted the spoiler, but not the trunk. The rear right of the back bumper was likely melted due to burning liquid that was moving to the right due to gravity and how the car was parked on the side of the road.
I don’t think this guy committed arson, hell the car was already full of accelerant (gasoline) so he wouldn’t have needed to bring any. And accelerant leaves a trail that can be easily identified by an expert arson investigator. I think he did some bad wiring which caught fire and spread. Had he committed arson, there is no way he would be posting about it online. You would want it unnoticed because the steaks are HUGE. Lots of money, jail time, etc.
And the fire wouldn't have spread to the engine bay due to the fire wall.
My End Conclusion:
I don’t think this guy committed arson, hell the car was already full of accelerant (gasoline) so he wouldn’t have needed to bring any. And accelerant leaves a trail that can be easily identified by an expert arson investigator. I think he did some bad wiring which caught fire and spread. Had he committed arson, there is no way he would be posting about it online. You would want it unnoticed because the steaks are HUGE. Lots of money, jail time, etc.
*Now for those of you who want to now why this is what I think, read the following:
His Story:
Orange flames came down in to the driver’s side of the cabin from the dash area.
What Makes a Subaru, a Subaru:
Aluminum: [Light metal used in body of car.]
Copper: [Used for wiring throughout automobile.]
Iron Ore: [Used to make steel for the frame and engine of the auto.]
Petroleum: [From petroleum we produce plastics (used for the body and interior), rubber tires, paint, synthetic fabrics, gasoline and lubricating oils. Also to make electricity used in the production of the auto.]
Laminated Glass: Windshield [There are three layers--two outer glass sheets with a urethane plastic center bonded in-between. The plastic inner layer reduces the chance of occupant penetration in a crash, and keeps the glass from separating into flying shards. Some side and back glass is laminated as well.]
Tempered Glass: Side and Rear Windows [This means that a solid sheet of glass is cooled quickly in the manufacturing process, which creates a different hardness in the outside and center of the window. As a result, the glass shatters into square pebbles rather than sharp shards in an accident. Risk of laceration and abrasion is reduced.]
The Facts:
Petroleum Fuel Autoignition Temperature: 475°F
Petroleum Fuel Burning Temperature: 1650°F with fluctuations measured of up to 2280°F.
Aluminum Melting Point: 1220.58 °F
Glass Melting Point: about 3,000°F
Steel Melting Point: 2500°F
Conclusion:
If a fire started due to a wiring issue in the front of the car and eventually spread throughout the car, catching all of the interior components on fire to at least 475°F, then it could have been able to ignite the fuel in the fuel tank without direct flame impingement if it received oxygen.
The fuel in the pressurized tank would have to have the heat from the cabin fire AND oxygen to burn unless an open flame could get to it and cause the gasoline to emit vapors, allowing the vapors to catch fire. So, oxygen found it’s way to the preheated 475°F fuel and it went up OR a flame found it’s way to the tank. Either way, it ignited.
Looking at the passenger side doors in the pictures of the WRX, you’ll notice white scorching a little on the front door and tons more on the rear doors, where it manages to go all the way through the door. You can also see it on the rear pillars and the roof. This is indicative of the high temperatures of the fire. Black smoke residue is indicative of burn patterns, and not necessarily where something burned. The majority of this fire occurred in the rear of the cabin, however it could have easily started up front like the guy said.
Once the fire was able to ignite fuel, the flames would burn above 1650°F, melting the aluminum body panels, trunk, and STi spoiler. And the flames were rising, which is why I think it melted the spoiler, but not the trunk. The rear right of the back bumper was likely melted due to burning liquid that was moving to the right due to gravity and how the car was parked on the side of the road.
I don’t think this guy committed arson, hell the car was already full of accelerant (gasoline) so he wouldn’t have needed to bring any. And accelerant leaves a trail that can be easily identified by an expert arson investigator. I think he did some bad wiring which caught fire and spread. Had he committed arson, there is no way he would be posting about it online. You would want it unnoticed because the steaks are HUGE. Lots of money, jail time, etc.
And the fire wouldn't have spread to the engine bay due to the fire wall.
Last edited by medicSTi; 04-02-2008 at 03:42 AM.
04-02-2008, 08:43 AM
#32
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sorry wrxtunerd, but there was no propellant to get the fire from under the dash, to the rear of the car, and ignite the gas via radiant heat all in a minute and a half. Had the pressure and heat in the gas tank built up enough to cause combustion the burn would look entirely different and would have lasted a lot longer than 1.5 mins. Not to mention the fuel tanks are vacuum sealed, so there wouldn't really be a way for "the flames or oxygen to find their way in"
04-02-2008, 12:38 PM
#33
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sorry wrxtunerd, but there was no propellant to get the fire from under the dash, to the rear of the car, and ignite the gas via radiant heat all in a minute and a half. Had the pressure and heat in the gas tank built up enough to cause combustion the burn would look entirely different and would have lasted a lot longer than 1.5 mins. Not to mention the fuel tanks are vacuum sealed, so there wouldn't really be a way for "the flames or oxygen to find their way in"
How do you know how long the car burned for? Were you there? Otherwise I assume you're taking his word for it. And if you're taking his word on one "fact" then it would be hypocritical to dismiss his other "facts" as lies because you don't like, agree, or believe them. So where is your info about how long the vehicle fire lasted?
If you read the wrxmodders forums, it seems like this kid does some seriously scary wiring. Across the engine bay, and all sorts of there ghetto mods. One can only imagine how scary it looked under the dash.
And are you saying that the gas in the gas tank didn't catch on fire?
If you're saying some other type of accelerate was poured in the cabin and trailed off the side of the road, understand that the temperatures in the quick burning fire would not reach high enough temperatures to melt the spoiler, rear bumper, and would not likely scorch the car as it did. Like I posted, aluminum melts at 1200*F and a vehicle fire where only the interior combustibles burn would not hit that temperature, especially in "the short time you say it burned."
1. Full Tank Went Up.
2. Let me know when you find out how you know how long it burned and who/what your source is.
04-02-2008, 01:13 PM
#34
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I already acknowledged what you wrote in red in my post.
How do you know how long the car burned for? Were you there? Otherwise I assume you're taking his word for it. And if you're taking his word on one "fact" then it would be hypocritical to dismiss his other "facts" as lies because you don't like, agree, or believe them. So where is your info about how long the vehicle fire lasted?
If you read the wrxmodders forums, it seems like this kid does some seriously scary wiring. Across the engine bay, and all sorts of there ghetto mods. One can only imagine how scary it looked under the dash.
And are you saying that the gas in the gas tank didn't catch on fire?
If you're saying some other type of accelerate was poured in the cabin and trailed off the side of the road, understand that the temperatures in the quick burning fire would not reach high enough temperatures to melt the spoiler, rear bumper, and would not likely scorch the car as it did. Like I posted, aluminum melts at 1200*F and a vehicle fire where only the interior combustibles burn would not hit that temperature, especially in "the short time you say it burned."
1. Full Tank Went Up.
2. Let me know when you find out how you know how long it burned and who/what your source is.
How do you know how long the car burned for? Were you there? Otherwise I assume you're taking his word for it. And if you're taking his word on one "fact" then it would be hypocritical to dismiss his other "facts" as lies because you don't like, agree, or believe them. So where is your info about how long the vehicle fire lasted?
If you read the wrxmodders forums, it seems like this kid does some seriously scary wiring. Across the engine bay, and all sorts of there ghetto mods. One can only imagine how scary it looked under the dash.
And are you saying that the gas in the gas tank didn't catch on fire?
If you're saying some other type of accelerate was poured in the cabin and trailed off the side of the road, understand that the temperatures in the quick burning fire would not reach high enough temperatures to melt the spoiler, rear bumper, and would not likely scorch the car as it did. Like I posted, aluminum melts at 1200*F and a vehicle fire where only the interior combustibles burn would not hit that temperature, especially in "the short time you say it burned."
1. Full Tank Went Up.
2. Let me know when you find out how you know how long it burned and who/what your source is.
04-02-2008, 01:48 PM
#35
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If a vacuum sealed fuel tank was exposed it would have exploded.. how would something under pressure and full of fuel not explode.
and the kid "5ubaru" said it finished burning down to the ground in 90 seconds flat. hmmmmm no way is that car going to burn hot enough to go up that quick.
and the kid "5ubaru" said it finished burning down to the ground in 90 seconds flat. hmmmmm no way is that car going to burn hot enough to go up that quick.
04-02-2008, 04:04 PM
#37
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If a vacuum sealed fuel tank was exposed it would have exploded.. how would something under pressure and full of fuel not explode.
and the kid "5ubaru" said it finished burning down to the ground in 90 seconds flat. hmmmmm no way is that car going to burn hot enough to go up that quick.
and the kid "5ubaru" said it finished burning down to the ground in 90 seconds flat. hmmmmm no way is that car going to burn hot enough to go up that quick.
As for the fuel tank, I asked my professor, a ret. fire chief, about it today. All it would take is the fire in the cabin melting a fuel line to get to the fuel and eventually spread to the tank. He also said that the fuel tank would have likely been compromised by the interior fire towards the rear anyway. He's a retired arson investigator.
The fuel in the gas tank inside of the car did ignite, it's obvious in the pictures. How much fuel was in the tank would have affected the duration of the fire AND whether or not the tank would have BLEVE'd and how bad the explosion would have been. If the tank was less than full it would have had room for the gas to expand without building up a lot of pressure relative to what it could have. AND if this kid is a broke as everyone says, what makes you think he was driving around with a full tank of gas anyway lol? If it was even half full, the container's explosion wouldn't be nearly as violent or as large as other vehicle fires, especially trucks/jeeps/suvs with larger 20+ gallon fuel tanks.
04-02-2008, 04:17 PM
#38
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As a side note, I told my professor that the following:
"A guy claims that his car caught fire in the dash and then spread through out the interior and melted the trunk/bumper/spoiler as well as singing the right hand side doors, the rear pillars, and the roof. How can the fire spread from the dash to the fuel tank, which obviously became involved?"
He replied that the interior fire would have melted a fuel line and spread to the tank through the lines, which is common in developed vehicle fires. He also said the cars don't catch themselves on fire. Now he didn't know anything else about the case/person/car and he calls shenanigans. He thinks that the owner had something to do with it.
BUT he doesn't know about the hardcore crappy wiring and mods this kid had done.
The reasons I would consider interesting if trying to prove arson would be the following:
1. Vehicle fires don't last 90 Seconds (so that's a lie or an accelerant was used)
2. I haven't heard of anyone's crappy wiring catching their car on fire.
3. The point made by RAD on wrxmodders (evsoul on here) about how the right side is more damaged because someone poured accelerant in the car from the passengers side to avoid being seen is an understandable idea.
4. The kid apparently has a motive (being in harsh need of money and complaining about his car payment)
5. Arsonists are usually unliked, he's definitely that on wrxmodders... for whatever that's worth.
"A guy claims that his car caught fire in the dash and then spread through out the interior and melted the trunk/bumper/spoiler as well as singing the right hand side doors, the rear pillars, and the roof. How can the fire spread from the dash to the fuel tank, which obviously became involved?"
He replied that the interior fire would have melted a fuel line and spread to the tank through the lines, which is common in developed vehicle fires. He also said the cars don't catch themselves on fire. Now he didn't know anything else about the case/person/car and he calls shenanigans. He thinks that the owner had something to do with it.
BUT he doesn't know about the hardcore crappy wiring and mods this kid had done.
The reasons I would consider interesting if trying to prove arson would be the following:
1. Vehicle fires don't last 90 Seconds (so that's a lie or an accelerant was used)
2. I haven't heard of anyone's crappy wiring catching their car on fire.
3. The point made by RAD on wrxmodders (evsoul on here) about how the right side is more damaged because someone poured accelerant in the car from the passengers side to avoid being seen is an understandable idea.
4. The kid apparently has a motive (being in harsh need of money and complaining about his car payment)
5. Arsonists are usually unliked, he's definitely that on wrxmodders... for whatever that's worth.
04-03-2008, 01:25 AM
#40
will see what they say. Think unless you do this for a living and have the experience investigating causes of car fires or know a lot about it and can investigate the car its just silly speculation. You think hed be able to sell it or figure something out
04-03-2008, 03:31 AM
#41
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Why do you believe him on the fact that his car burned down in 90 seconds, but discredit him on the other facts he presents? How can you believe him for one and not the other? You are choosing what you'd like to believe for the sake of your point at the expense of the hypocrisy you're committing.
As for the fuel tank, I asked my professor, a ret. fire chief, about it today. All it would take is the fire in the cabin melting a fuel line to get to the fuel and eventually spread to the tank. He also said that the fuel tank would have likely been compromised by the interior fire towards the rear anyway. He's a retired arson investigator.
The fuel in the gas tank inside of the car did ignite, it's obvious in the pictures. How much fuel was in the tank would have affected the duration of the fire AND whether or not the tank would have BLEVE'd and how bad the explosion would have been. If the tank was less than full it would have had room for the gas to expand without building up a lot of pressure relative to what it could have. AND if this kid is a broke as everyone says, what makes you think he was driving around with a full tank of gas anyway lol? If it was even half full, the container's explosion wouldn't be nearly as violent or as large as other vehicle fires, especially trucks/jeeps/suvs with larger 20+ gallon fuel tanks.
As for the fuel tank, I asked my professor, a ret. fire chief, about it today. All it would take is the fire in the cabin melting a fuel line to get to the fuel and eventually spread to the tank. He also said that the fuel tank would have likely been compromised by the interior fire towards the rear anyway. He's a retired arson investigator.
The fuel in the gas tank inside of the car did ignite, it's obvious in the pictures. How much fuel was in the tank would have affected the duration of the fire AND whether or not the tank would have BLEVE'd and how bad the explosion would have been. If the tank was less than full it would have had room for the gas to expand without building up a lot of pressure relative to what it could have. AND if this kid is a broke as everyone says, what makes you think he was driving around with a full tank of gas anyway lol? If it was even half full, the container's explosion wouldn't be nearly as violent or as large as other vehicle fires, especially trucks/jeeps/suvs with larger 20+ gallon fuel tanks.
I never said I believed him about it burning down in 90 minutes.. I am just quoting him.. In my fire class we watched plenty of videos of cars burning on scene with fire fighters just watching it and the cars took MUCH longer than 90 seconds to burn down.
So again.. I was quoting him to suggest the lack of honesty in all this..
And out of all the videos I have seen in my fire class... the way his car burned doesn't look right. its oddly suggestive that it was setup with a purposeful fuel.. I dunno. His story just doesn't make sense.
And if it ended up being a wire short that caused it I am sure its from his shoddy workmanship with the car.. HID's off a caddy custom installed on his car without any knowledge of electrical voltage or wiring.
04-03-2008, 05:33 PM
#42
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^ I can agree with that. I think he's not being honest and his story line is BS. There's no way he saw orange under the dash UNLESS the fire spread to the very top of the carpet before he saw it. Wiring and all the crap in the dash would have burned black with lots of dark smoke.
But, I also don't think he's dumb enough to commit arson and post about it on a public forum where he isn't liked.
I think it is definitely some seriously shoddy wiring and it was the cause.
What fire classes have you taken and where at?
But, I also don't think he's dumb enough to commit arson and post about it on a public forum where he isn't liked.
I think it is definitely some seriously shoddy wiring and it was the cause.
What fire classes have you taken and where at?
04-03-2008, 10:48 PM
#45
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^ I can agree with that. I think he's not being honest and his story line is BS. There's no way he saw orange under the dash UNLESS the fire spread to the very top of the carpet before he saw it. Wiring and all the crap in the dash would have burned black with lots of dark smoke.
But, I also don't think he's dumb enough to commit arson and post about it on a public forum where he isn't liked.
I think it is definitely some seriously shoddy wiring and it was the cause.
What fire classes have you taken and where at?
But, I also don't think he's dumb enough to commit arson and post about it on a public forum where he isn't liked.
I think it is definitely some seriously shoddy wiring and it was the cause.
What fire classes have you taken and where at?
And seriously.. hes dumb enough to post it on a public forum where he thinks he is liked. If this were anyone else I would say ya it could have been arson but probably not.. but it just worked out WAY too perfect for this guy.