I need a gun
10-07-2010, 09:45 PM
#49
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Careful, you shoot someone in the back and you buy yourself a one way ticket to PRISON, no questions asked. The threat has to be coming at you, meaning that your life is in DIRECT threat and the ONLY option you have is to shoot them... If you can run, hide, or do ANYTHING to get out of the situation without deadly force but decided to shoot the person instead, the detectives WILL find out and that is murder, even if they are in your house and are a threat to you... Being a threat is not enough, they have to be an imminent threat, a direct one to your or a loved one... Always remember this!
10-07-2010, 09:52 PM
#50
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People don't give birdshot enough credit... Birdshot will f someone UP! Ive seen pics of people who were killed by a shot from a shotgun using birdshot. The birdshot is strong enough to penetrate the skull and enter the brain. If the person doesn't die right then and there, they will die from the 100 small lead BB's stuck inside their vital zone. If one shot isn't enough, two will be, even if you are on drugs. The amount of blood you lose is insane!
Some people think you can stop birdshot by wearing a baggy jacket, which is utter BS. We shot a super thick jacket last time we were at the national forest, it was leather + thick parka... The birdshot went right through it like it was not even there (and put some holes into an old water heater that was standing behind it). Not only did it penetrate the jackets, but it went into the water heater (but not through it). I know it's thin metal, but even still, it's enough to go INSIDE a human. Buckshot is overkill when you're in a populated apartment complex, or anywhere populated. If you live in the boonies like Ray does, then buckshot/slugs are fine.
Also, even with the tricked out 870 I have (with recoil reducing stock, which reduces felt recoil by up to 90%), my wife still has trouble shoooting it with buckshot and prefers birdshot. I'd much rather give her something she can handle rather than something she can't.
Some people think you can stop birdshot by wearing a baggy jacket, which is utter BS. We shot a super thick jacket last time we were at the national forest, it was leather + thick parka... The birdshot went right through it like it was not even there (and put some holes into an old water heater that was standing behind it). Not only did it penetrate the jackets, but it went into the water heater (but not through it). I know it's thin metal, but even still, it's enough to go INSIDE a human. Buckshot is overkill when you're in a populated apartment complex, or anywhere populated. If you live in the boonies like Ray does, then buckshot/slugs are fine.
Also, even with the tricked out 870 I have (with recoil reducing stock, which reduces felt recoil by up to 90%), my wife still has trouble shoooting it with buckshot and prefers birdshot. I'd much rather give her something she can handle rather than something she can't.
10-07-2010, 11:48 PM
#51
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People don't give birdshot enough credit... Birdshot will f someone UP! Ive seen pics of people who were killed by a shot from a shotgun using birdshot. The birdshot is strong enough to penetrate the skull and enter the brain. If the person doesn't die right then and there, they will die from the 100 small lead BB's stuck inside their vital zone. If one shot isn't enough, two will be, even if you are on drugs. The amount of blood you lose is insane!
Some people think you can stop birdshot by wearing a baggy jacket, which is utter BS. We shot a super thick jacket last time we were at the national forest, it was leather + thick parka... The birdshot went right through it like it was not even there (and put some holes into an old water heater that was standing behind it). Not only did it penetrate the jackets, but it went into the water heater (but not through it). I know it's thin metal, but even still, it's enough to go INSIDE a human. Buckshot is overkill when you're in a populated apartment complex, or anywhere populated. If you live in the boonies like Ray does, then buckshot/slugs are fine.
Also, even with the tricked out 870 I have (with recoil reducing stock, which reduces felt recoil by up to 90%), my wife still has trouble shoooting it with buckshot and prefers birdshot. I'd much rather give her something she can handle rather than something she can't.
Some people think you can stop birdshot by wearing a baggy jacket, which is utter BS. We shot a super thick jacket last time we were at the national forest, it was leather + thick parka... The birdshot went right through it like it was not even there (and put some holes into an old water heater that was standing behind it). Not only did it penetrate the jackets, but it went into the water heater (but not through it). I know it's thin metal, but even still, it's enough to go INSIDE a human. Buckshot is overkill when you're in a populated apartment complex, or anywhere populated. If you live in the boonies like Ray does, then buckshot/slugs are fine.
Also, even with the tricked out 870 I have (with recoil reducing stock, which reduces felt recoil by up to 90%), my wife still has trouble shoooting it with buckshot and prefers birdshot. I'd much rather give her something she can handle rather than something she can't.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
10-08-2010, 12:15 AM
#52
That's interesting.
Grouping and the penetration are both a bit more than I expected but not surprising. Now do that with a .40 or .45 jacketed round. I bet it sticks in the brick. I still think the chances of plugging a relative through a wall are slimmer with the shotgun than a handgun. Plus the click clack is scary enough for most and not having to face off is the point really. I'm guessing that was your point... That shotguns still go through walls...
Daniel... I'd like to think I'd never shoot someone in the back and I hope I never have to shoot someone. Let me know if you want to hook a dude up with a glock or a sig any day... haaa. And I really need to get out and shoot again. Having the shotgun in my hands the other night felt natural but it's been a LONG time since I put rounds through anything.
Interesting side note... rock salt hurts like a ****... I've been shot with it. I'd have to think that birdshot would do just fine but like you said... I live in the boonies. Haaaa.
Grouping and the penetration are both a bit more than I expected but not surprising. Now do that with a .40 or .45 jacketed round. I bet it sticks in the brick. I still think the chances of plugging a relative through a wall are slimmer with the shotgun than a handgun. Plus the click clack is scary enough for most and not having to face off is the point really. I'm guessing that was your point... That shotguns still go through walls...
Daniel... I'd like to think I'd never shoot someone in the back and I hope I never have to shoot someone. Let me know if you want to hook a dude up with a glock or a sig any day... haaa. And I really need to get out and shoot again. Having the shotgun in my hands the other night felt natural but it's been a LONG time since I put rounds through anything.
Interesting side note... rock salt hurts like a ****... I've been shot with it. I'd have to think that birdshot would do just fine but like you said... I live in the boonies. Haaaa.
10-08-2010, 06:42 AM
#53
Last edited by buzzword; 10-08-2010 at 07:43 AM.
10-08-2010, 11:32 AM
#54
10-08-2010, 05:11 PM
#55
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10-09-2010, 12:17 AM
#57
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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im gonna chime in a little, though i generally don't get into my defense beliefs on the net.
1st, shotgun shotgun shotgun... extremely versatile weapon system, regardless of pump or auto. #4 buck or larger for people. bird shot is for birds. i have friends that have taken full trap loads to the face, you couldn't tell 15 years later. Also, i tend to STRONGLY disagree with the belief that racking a pump shotgun is a deterrent. It simply says "I have a gun", given, rather loudly. That said, if im in your house, posing a serious threat to you or your loved ones, i know have a method of echo-location, in that situation, if i feel like i can't get out or i don't want to, i'm shooting through the walls.(this may be a rare occurrence but its something to ponder.) another thing, "pattern" your defensive shotgun with the ammo you intend to use.(see if you can do this at multiple distances, use realistic measurements taken from your home-this may not be an option if your limited to shooting at local ranges)
the idea of a handgun for defense is... well... fine. a handgun is generally thought of as a defensive weapon. Handguns(depending on the shooter) tend to have a steeper learning curve, so practice, practice, practice. caliber isn't as important as most make it out to be, stick with the big 3(9,40,45) in autos, for revolvers 38/357. i prefer a .41 mag but its hard to find ammo and the gun can be a little bulky for smaller hands. shot placement is what counts, i have personally seen people shot with 45s and still be combat effective, if your not hitting vitals IE the pump, the light switch and other extreamely important parts, your just poking holes. there's a ton more i wont go into...
then theres my personal preference, rifles. The moment people read this they tend to flip, a rifle in the home defense role can be rasily misused and pose more threat to those behind your assailant than anything else. i prefer a 5.56/.223 rifle/carbine for this role.(now before you get your panties in a wad, read on) there have been HUGE improvements in defensive ammo, soft point, hollow points, frangible, the list goes on. the secret to this is finding the right ammo. my personal HD rig is a 1911 in 45acp and a 5.56 carbine, the carbine is loaded with frangible ammo in the primary mag, secondary is federal 55grn soft points(this specific round was what was recomended to me by a close friend/instructor of mine. when i asked why, i got the response "it works... i've shot people with it." coming from him, people is plural, and i believe him) 3rd mag(yeas my mags are organized, in a makeshift bandoleer, **** i know. but hell, it works for me)
is loaded with ss109. the other 3 on this kit are also ss109. frangible and soft points will aide in the reduction of over penetration, but not stop it(ive seen frangibles go right through soft tissue and not break apart.- ive also seen them do some seriously catastrophic things to it also) as for the neighbors, if i make i though the mag of frangible ammo, this have gone seriously awry. (oh, also sheetrock will NOT also cause frangibles to break up, so , dont think i am saying they are the end all be all. they have some other issues too but thats for another time)
im not gonna go into any more details as im tired and im already rambling. i guess i can go more into if people wish but im sure nobody wants to hear it.
Ian
1st, shotgun shotgun shotgun... extremely versatile weapon system, regardless of pump or auto. #4 buck or larger for people. bird shot is for birds. i have friends that have taken full trap loads to the face, you couldn't tell 15 years later. Also, i tend to STRONGLY disagree with the belief that racking a pump shotgun is a deterrent. It simply says "I have a gun", given, rather loudly. That said, if im in your house, posing a serious threat to you or your loved ones, i know have a method of echo-location, in that situation, if i feel like i can't get out or i don't want to, i'm shooting through the walls.(this may be a rare occurrence but its something to ponder.) another thing, "pattern" your defensive shotgun with the ammo you intend to use.(see if you can do this at multiple distances, use realistic measurements taken from your home-this may not be an option if your limited to shooting at local ranges)
the idea of a handgun for defense is... well... fine. a handgun is generally thought of as a defensive weapon. Handguns(depending on the shooter) tend to have a steeper learning curve, so practice, practice, practice. caliber isn't as important as most make it out to be, stick with the big 3(9,40,45) in autos, for revolvers 38/357. i prefer a .41 mag but its hard to find ammo and the gun can be a little bulky for smaller hands. shot placement is what counts, i have personally seen people shot with 45s and still be combat effective, if your not hitting vitals IE the pump, the light switch and other extreamely important parts, your just poking holes. there's a ton more i wont go into...
then theres my personal preference, rifles. The moment people read this they tend to flip, a rifle in the home defense role can be rasily misused and pose more threat to those behind your assailant than anything else. i prefer a 5.56/.223 rifle/carbine for this role.(now before you get your panties in a wad, read on) there have been HUGE improvements in defensive ammo, soft point, hollow points, frangible, the list goes on. the secret to this is finding the right ammo. my personal HD rig is a 1911 in 45acp and a 5.56 carbine, the carbine is loaded with frangible ammo in the primary mag, secondary is federal 55grn soft points(this specific round was what was recomended to me by a close friend/instructor of mine. when i asked why, i got the response "it works... i've shot people with it." coming from him, people is plural, and i believe him) 3rd mag(yeas my mags are organized, in a makeshift bandoleer, **** i know. but hell, it works for me)
is loaded with ss109. the other 3 on this kit are also ss109. frangible and soft points will aide in the reduction of over penetration, but not stop it(ive seen frangibles go right through soft tissue and not break apart.- ive also seen them do some seriously catastrophic things to it also) as for the neighbors, if i make i though the mag of frangible ammo, this have gone seriously awry. (oh, also sheetrock will NOT also cause frangibles to break up, so , dont think i am saying they are the end all be all. they have some other issues too but thats for another time)
im not gonna go into any more details as im tired and im already rambling. i guess i can go more into if people wish but im sure nobody wants to hear it.
Ian
10-09-2010, 12:34 AM
#58
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Join Date: May 2004
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im gonna chime in a little, though i generally don't get into my defense beliefs on the net.
1st, shotgun shotgun shotgun... extremely versatile weapon system, regardless of pump or auto. #4 buck or larger for people. bird shot is for birds. i have friends that have taken full trap loads to the face, you couldn't tell 15 years later. Also, i tend to STRONGLY disagree with the belief that racking a pump shotgun is a deterrent. It simply says "I have a gun", given, rather loudly. That said, if im in your house, posing a serious threat to you or your loved ones, i know have a method of echo-location, in that situation, if i feel like i can't get out or i don't want to, i'm shooting through the walls.(this may be a rare occurrence but its something to ponder.) another thing, "pattern" your defensive shotgun with the ammo you intend to use.(see if you can do this at multiple distances, use realistic measurements taken from your home-this may not be an option if your limited to shooting at local ranges)
the idea of a handgun for defense is... well... fine. a handgun is generally thought of as a defensive weapon. Handguns(depending on the shooter) tend to have a steeper learning curve, so practice, practice, practice. caliber isn't as important as most make it out to be, stick with the big 3(9,40,45) in autos, for revolvers 38/357. i prefer a .41 mag but its hard to find ammo and the gun can be a little bulky for smaller hands. shot placement is what counts, i have personally seen people shot with 45s and still be combat effective, if your not hitting vitals IE the pump, the light switch and other extreamely important parts, your just poking holes. there's a ton more i wont go into...
then theres my personal preference, rifles. The moment people read this they tend to flip, a rifle in the home defense role can be rasily misused and pose more threat to those behind your assailant than anything else. i prefer a 5.56/.223 rifle/carbine for this role.(now before you get your panties in a wad, read on) there have been HUGE improvements in defensive ammo, soft point, hollow points, frangible, the list goes on. the secret to this is finding the right ammo. my personal HD rig is a 1911 in 45acp and a 5.56 carbine, the carbine is loaded with frangible ammo in the primary mag, secondary is federal 55grn soft points(this specific round was what was recomended to me by a close friend/instructor of mine. when i asked why, i got the response "it works... i've shot people with it." coming from him, people is plural, and i believe him) 3rd mag(yeas my mags are organized, in a makeshift bandoleer, **** i know. but hell, it works for me)
is loaded with ss109. the other 3 on this kit are also ss109. frangible and soft points will aide in the reduction of over penetration, but not stop it(ive seen frangibles go right through soft tissue and not break apart.- ive also seen them do some seriously catastrophic things to it also) as for the neighbors, if i make i though the mag of frangible ammo, this have gone seriously awry. (oh, also sheetrock will NOT also cause frangibles to break up, so , dont think i am saying they are the end all be all. they have some other issues too but thats for another time)
im not gonna go into any more details as im tired and im already rambling. i guess i can go more into if people wish but im sure nobody wants to hear it.
Ian
1st, shotgun shotgun shotgun... extremely versatile weapon system, regardless of pump or auto. #4 buck or larger for people. bird shot is for birds. i have friends that have taken full trap loads to the face, you couldn't tell 15 years later. Also, i tend to STRONGLY disagree with the belief that racking a pump shotgun is a deterrent. It simply says "I have a gun", given, rather loudly. That said, if im in your house, posing a serious threat to you or your loved ones, i know have a method of echo-location, in that situation, if i feel like i can't get out or i don't want to, i'm shooting through the walls.(this may be a rare occurrence but its something to ponder.) another thing, "pattern" your defensive shotgun with the ammo you intend to use.(see if you can do this at multiple distances, use realistic measurements taken from your home-this may not be an option if your limited to shooting at local ranges)
the idea of a handgun for defense is... well... fine. a handgun is generally thought of as a defensive weapon. Handguns(depending on the shooter) tend to have a steeper learning curve, so practice, practice, practice. caliber isn't as important as most make it out to be, stick with the big 3(9,40,45) in autos, for revolvers 38/357. i prefer a .41 mag but its hard to find ammo and the gun can be a little bulky for smaller hands. shot placement is what counts, i have personally seen people shot with 45s and still be combat effective, if your not hitting vitals IE the pump, the light switch and other extreamely important parts, your just poking holes. there's a ton more i wont go into...
then theres my personal preference, rifles. The moment people read this they tend to flip, a rifle in the home defense role can be rasily misused and pose more threat to those behind your assailant than anything else. i prefer a 5.56/.223 rifle/carbine for this role.(now before you get your panties in a wad, read on) there have been HUGE improvements in defensive ammo, soft point, hollow points, frangible, the list goes on. the secret to this is finding the right ammo. my personal HD rig is a 1911 in 45acp and a 5.56 carbine, the carbine is loaded with frangible ammo in the primary mag, secondary is federal 55grn soft points(this specific round was what was recomended to me by a close friend/instructor of mine. when i asked why, i got the response "it works... i've shot people with it." coming from him, people is plural, and i believe him) 3rd mag(yeas my mags are organized, in a makeshift bandoleer, **** i know. but hell, it works for me)
is loaded with ss109. the other 3 on this kit are also ss109. frangible and soft points will aide in the reduction of over penetration, but not stop it(ive seen frangibles go right through soft tissue and not break apart.- ive also seen them do some seriously catastrophic things to it also) as for the neighbors, if i make i though the mag of frangible ammo, this have gone seriously awry. (oh, also sheetrock will NOT also cause frangibles to break up, so , dont think i am saying they are the end all be all. they have some other issues too but thats for another time)
im not gonna go into any more details as im tired and im already rambling. i guess i can go more into if people wish but im sure nobody wants to hear it.
Ian
My personal choice in weapons systems for home defense use pretty much mirrors your own. Except instead of the 1911, I prefer a Glock 19 with a light attached as the sidearm and a Noveske N4 carbine as the primary. I have the pistol holstered in the same chest rig that carries the mags for the primary. Takes less than 10 seconds to throw on the chest rig and sling the rifle in case something goes bump in the night.
10-09-2010, 12:44 AM
#59
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BTW, this dude is hilarious. And he actually has some decent advice on home invader deterrents. LOL
*Might have some NSFW language
*Might have some NSFW language
