FBI is now investigating Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, AIG
09-25-2008, 04:20 PM
#77
Old School
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In all seriousness, WWII is what revamped our industrial systems, gave people REAL jobs and got the work force motivated like never before. Cause we had a reason to fight, and fight we did.
Before that we didn't bother with Germany so much, and we were still in a poor situation economically in the early 40's. Good thing was the drought and other aspects of the depression were gone, but work was still hard to come by.
And lets not forget that consumerism was born in the 50's when the "boys" came home and landed jobs and got to buy awesome stuff like tupperware and toasters... homes, washers and driers... cars! all kinds of stuff.
Before that we didn't bother with Germany so much, and we were still in a poor situation economically in the early 40's. Good thing was the drought and other aspects of the depression were gone, but work was still hard to come by.
And lets not forget that consumerism was born in the 50's when the "boys" came home and landed jobs and got to buy awesome stuff like tupperware and toasters... homes, washers and driers... cars! all kinds of stuff.
09-25-2008, 04:28 PM
#78
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These companies were able to get away with such shenanigans because there wasn't legislation/rules to guard against this tidal wave of 'le fail'. I'd like to know what our govt is going to do now that its taking such a non laissez faire stance.
I feel like this $700 Billion is probably about half of what the real damage actually is. In the future there has to be some safeguard other than "trust us we know what we're doing" , to keep corporations from doing this crap all over again.
I feel like this $700 Billion is probably about half of what the real damage actually is. In the future there has to be some safeguard other than "trust us we know what we're doing" , to keep corporations from doing this crap all over again.
i did make some money though
09-25-2008, 04:44 PM
#80
I don't need more cowbell dammit!
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These companies were able to get away with such shenanigans because there wasn't legislation/rules to guard against this tidal wave of 'le fail'. I'd like to know what our govt is going to do now that its taking such a non laissez faire stance.
I feel like this $700 Billion is probably about half of what the real damage actually is. In the future there has to be some safeguard other than "trust us we know what we're doing" , to keep corporations from doing this crap all over again.
I feel like this $700 Billion is probably about half of what the real damage actually is. In the future there has to be some safeguard other than "trust us we know what we're doing" , to keep corporations from doing this crap all over again.
09-25-2008, 04:49 PM
#81
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You think that if any of these guys died or left the company- (last I checked, Bill Gates is retired anyway) the companies would stop making the tons of money that they make?
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
Last edited by psoper; 09-25-2008 at 04:55 PM.
09-25-2008, 04:53 PM
#82
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So do you want regulation or do you want Laissez Faire economy?
Also seems like the govt should get back to focusing on domestic issues rather than shadowy ragtag threats & the actions of remote sovereign nations.
09-25-2008, 04:59 PM
#83
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AIG has hundreds of shadow LLC's and offshoots, they make Enron look like a tidy nice little well-run company.
No way in hell are they going to pay this off with 11% interest in the current economy, even with this other 700 billion "bad paper" consolidation scheme, AIG is toast.
And so is this country - at least as we knew it as a leading world economic power.
09-25-2008, 05:02 PM
#84
You think that if any of these guys died or left the company- (last I checked, Bill Gates is retired anyway) the companies would stop making the tons of money that they make?
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
now would the company be where it is with out these people hell no
09-25-2008, 11:49 PM
#85
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You need to read up on AIG, all of it's dubious spin-offs and holding companies and the terms of the "loan" they got last week.
AIG has hundreds of shadow LLC's and offshoots, they make Enron look like a tidy nice little well-run company.
No way in hell are they going to pay this off with 11% interest in the current economy, even with this other 700 billion "bad paper" consolidation scheme, AIG is toast.
And so is this country - at least as we knew it as a leading world economic power.
AIG has hundreds of shadow LLC's and offshoots, they make Enron look like a tidy nice little well-run company.
No way in hell are they going to pay this off with 11% interest in the current economy, even with this other 700 billion "bad paper" consolidation scheme, AIG is toast.
And so is this country - at least as we knew it as a leading world economic power.
Edit, look what I found on Wikipedia....recognize any names?
"On October 14, 2004 the New York State Office of Attorney General Eliot Spitzer announced that it had commenced a civil action against Marsh & McLennan Companies for steering clients to preferred insurers with whom the company maintained lucrative payoff agreements, and for soliciting rigged bids for insurance contracts from the insurers. The Attorney General announced in a release that two AIG executives pleaded guilty to criminal charges in connection with this illegal course of conduct. In early May 2005, AIG restated its financial position and issued a reduction in book value of USD $2.7 billion, a 3.3 percent reduction in net worth.
On February 9, 2006, AIG and the New York State Attorney General's office agreed to a settlement in which AIG would pay a fine of $1.6 billion.[49]
There is an ongoing fraud investigation that has been launched by the FBI after the collapse in stock price"
Last edited by Lboogie; 09-25-2008 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Added info from Wikipedia
09-26-2008, 08:09 AM
#86
I don't need more cowbell dammit!
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You think that if any of these guys died or left the company- (last I checked, Bill Gates is retired anyway) the companies would stop making the tons of money that they make?
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
Oracle isn't successful because Larry Ellison is pulling in gazillion dollars- Oracle is successful because armies of programmers and systems engineers are building up systems that drive thousands of other companies, Larry Ellison just happened to be the lucky guy who recognized a huge market opportunity and pooled the resources to provide solutions that have proven very popular- I'm not saying Ellison hasn't made significant contributions to the company either- just that I don't think he personally contributes actual value to the company commensurate with the level of his compensation.
And one reason that Oracle can afford the chairman's payouts is that they hire engineers in India to do a lot of the grunt work at pennies on the dollar compared to what their domestic counterparts might cost.
Pixar and Apple wouldn't be going very far if not for the thousands of employees that actually do the work that creates their products- True- Jobs inspires people to do better work and he does have a great talent for recognizing good ideas and all, but seriously, how much are any of these guys, at the personal level- really creating? 10 million is still a buttload of money people...
But my argument is the same with any of these guys, once you get past the few million per year level, you are not really earning it, instead you are riding on the work and trust of others to justify your income.
And especially if your company fails in the process of you running it, in those cases people clearly aren't doing anything to justify a gazillion dollar salary.
09-26-2008, 08:09 AM
#87
I don't need more cowbell dammit!
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It seems that the business models of the modern American economy may need a paradigm shift to follow the tenants of BOTH. Seems like we are becoming victims of common greed & lack of ethics amongst big business.
Also seems like the govt should get back to focusing on domestic issues rather than shadowy ragtag threats & the actions of remote sovereign nations.
Also seems like the govt should get back to focusing on domestic issues rather than shadowy ragtag threats & the actions of remote sovereign nations.
09-26-2008, 08:12 AM
#88
I don't need more cowbell dammit!
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You need to read up on AIG, all of it's dubious spin-offs and holding companies and the terms of the "loan" they got last week.
AIG has hundreds of shadow LLC's and offshoots, they make Enron look like a tidy nice little well-run company.
No way in hell are they going to pay this off with 11% interest in the current economy, even with this other 700 billion "bad paper" consolidation scheme, AIG is toast.
And so is this country - at least as we knew it as a leading world economic power.
AIG has hundreds of shadow LLC's and offshoots, they make Enron look like a tidy nice little well-run company.
No way in hell are they going to pay this off with 11% interest in the current economy, even with this other 700 billion "bad paper" consolidation scheme, AIG is toast.
And so is this country - at least as we knew it as a leading world economic power.
09-26-2008, 08:14 AM
#90
I don't need more cowbell dammit!
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They probably would be fine, but the fact is that without Larry Ellison something like 40% of the worlds corporations, both large and small, would need to look elsewhere for their business IT solutions. Does Larry Ellison program Oracle's software himself? No, but without him and his direction Oracle would be nothing.