Ever wonder if the STOCK WRX spoiler is really functional?
01-26-2004, 04:04 PM
#17
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Originally posted by mexicanpizza
What about the bigger scoop? And altezza's make everything slower, don't you forget that.
And I-speed says the 02's are the fastest. (here: https://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=46000)
muahahahha
What about the bigger scoop? And altezza's make everything slower, don't you forget that.
And I-speed says the 02's are the fastest. (here: https://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=46000)
muahahahha
Besides that not only does common sense tell you that a bigger scoop =more air flow to the intercooler but STI appearantly believes in them too. Alteezas? huh? If I had Alteezas I hope you'd revoke my subie pass!
Last edited by 04WRBsedan; 01-26-2004 at 04:07 PM.
01-26-2004, 04:26 PM
#19
Originally posted by Seraph
i'm guessing mex is one of those dudes that encompasses everything thats not stock tailights to be altezzas
i'm guessing mex is one of those dudes that encompasses everything thats not stock tailights to be altezzas
01-26-2004, 05:34 PM
#20
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Originally posted by nKoan
Not necessiarly. If you have lift, and you generate downforce to get rid of the effects of lift, you have two force vectors, one pointing up and one pointing down (with relatively the same length). By "cancelling upforce" I meant reducing the size of the up vector by means other then creating a down vector.
From what I've heard, anything on the trunk of the car helps cancel out lift, but not necessiarly create downforce.
Basically, putting anything on the rear of your car help disrupt the , making the cars windflow profile less airplane wing like and more station wagon like (and wagons produce less lift then sedans/coupes). A spoiler or wing doesn't actually need to produce downforce to be somewhat effective.
Granted, on most cars the benefit isn't noticable under 100 mph because a non-skidplated undercarriage disrupts the airflow profile well enough. And of course there is the debate on downforce vs. drag created by a spoiler/wing.
Not necessiarly. If you have lift, and you generate downforce to get rid of the effects of lift, you have two force vectors, one pointing up and one pointing down (with relatively the same length). By "cancelling upforce" I meant reducing the size of the up vector by means other then creating a down vector.
From what I've heard, anything on the trunk of the car helps cancel out lift, but not necessiarly create downforce.
Basically, putting anything on the rear of your car help disrupt the , making the cars windflow profile less airplane wing like and more station wagon like (and wagons produce less lift then sedans/coupes). A spoiler or wing doesn't actually need to produce downforce to be somewhat effective.
Granted, on most cars the benefit isn't noticable under 100 mph because a non-skidplated undercarriage disrupts the airflow profile well enough. And of course there is the debate on downforce vs. drag created by a spoiler/wing.
Bernouli's effect simply states that the faster air moves over a surface, the less air pressure it has, less air pressure under a car, would actually "suck" the car onto the ground, like a vacuum....on the flip side....slower moving air creates a high pressure effect on the same surface, which will create lift under a car if the air is moving too slow (or "trapped") under the car.
2nd para.: if making your car more "stationwagon like" (extremely UN-aerodynamic) Makes the car stick to the road better (by disrupting airflow and making less lift), they why are all race cars very sleak, streamlined and aerodynamic? Shouldnt they all look like minivans? Isnt the whole point of making a car aerodynamic to create LESS drag/wind resistance, thus making the air around the car (at high speed) smoother/less turbulent, which in turn makes it more stable?
As far as the undercarriage goes....dont you WANT the bottom of the car to be as smooth and aerodynamic as possible....so the air flows smoothly under the car (low pressure area) rather than getting stirred up and "caught" under the car, thus creating a "cushion" of slower moving air (high pressure area) that will want to lift the car off the road. Cars themselves do not actually create lift (they are the wrong shape). This is where the spoiler comes into play....the spoiler is designed to "overpower" the force of the "cushion" of air under the car trying to lift it off the road....so the spoiler forces the car to essentially "glue" itself to the road in conjunction with the car being really low and having a smooth underbody.....by eliminating the effect of the turbulence underneath the car.
Thats why an F1 race car @ 200MPH could literally drive upside down on the ceiling of a tunnel (Like in MIB2), because its entire shape is designed to be extremely aerodynamic and produce downforce to keep the car on the track, not to mention that its front/rear spoilers are pretty aggressive and force the car onto the road so hard that: "A race car traveling at 200 mph, can generate downforce that is approximately twice its own weight."
http://speedarticles.com/auto_racing_article-8.html
/\ /\ /\ /\
The wings on a Champ Car work opposite to the way they work on an airplane (see How Airplanes Work for details on airplane wings). On an airplane, the wings provide lift. On a Champ Car, the wings are mounted upside down so that they provide downforce. The downforce keeps the car glued to the track with a downward pressure provided by the front and rear wings as well as the body itself. The amount of downforce is amazing -- once the car is traveling at 200 mph, there is enough downforce on the car that it could actually adhere itself to the ceiling of a tunnel and drive upside down! In a street course race, the downforce aerodynamics have enough suction to actually lift manhole covers -- before the race all of the manhole covers are welded down to prevent this from happening!
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/champ-car3.htm
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/champ-car3.htm
http://www.f1nutter.com/tech/aero.php
OK, I am going home now.....
-Ted
01-26-2004, 05:45 PM
#21
I can't find the full discussion. It was from about a year ago on here but I did find one of the articles that was used: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1055&P=5
01-26-2004, 05:53 PM
#22
Oh, okay. That makes sense now. I'll go edit my posts so people don't get wrong info.
I guess I'm just misinterperting stuff I've read. Happens a lot to me
I guess I'm just misinterperting stuff I've read. Happens a lot to me
Last edited by Nick Koan; 01-26-2004 at 06:19 PM.
01-28-2004, 01:06 PM
#25
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Aerodynamics and downforce are really two different things. When people speak if aerodynamics they mean the ability of an object to move through air while creating the least wind resistence and turbulence. Yes a station wagon is more aerodynamic than a sedan. It is shaped more like a bullet and nothing is more aerodynamic than that. Auto makers recognize that and are designing sedans with shorter trunk lid and rear windows that slope down to meet them then in the past. Also the trunk is usually higher then the hood. Todays sedans are much closer to a station wagon then they used to be. As for racing cars, formula cars are not aerodynamic at all. The four tires sticking out in the air flow kills all chance of that. Down force on a race car is always a comprimise. The more downforce, the faster a car will corner but it will be slower on a straight. That's why wings are adjustable. They find the setting that is best for each track.
01-28-2004, 09:28 PM
#26
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Originally posted by hockeygod
Got Boost, you talk alot of S*** but you sure do know your stuff. I took physics last year and it all seems to make sense. Nice
Got Boost, you talk alot of S*** but you sure do know your stuff. I took physics last year and it all seems to make sense. Nice
thank you :banana: nKoan- Thats why we are all here, to help eachother understand the things we dont....and dont be afraid to ask questions...seriously....I ask 'em all the time when I need help with stuff.
OldGuySTI- very true, although downforce is dependent on aerodynamics........the problem with station wagons and minivans is the rearend....you have this nice sloped nose and flowing roof to smooth the airflow....then all of a sudden it ends, and there is nothing to guide the air off the roof back into the main airstream behind the vehicle.....its just about as aerodynamic as a bus at the back, the link that huck posted describes how that abrupt end creates a huge amount of Drag (thats the same problem sedans have with air coming off the roof if the trunk is too short.) Also, I would say that a wing is alot more aerodynamic than a bullet because it has a trailing edge to keep the air smooth (same reason that hydrofoils are shaped like wings...less drag).
-Ted
01-29-2004, 01:59 PM
#29
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Well said GotBoost... my thoughts precisely ..... Wagon < Sedan in aerodynamics ... also on a note OldSTiguy bullet is not the most aerodynamic shape, the shape of a droplet of water falling from the sky is (eg fishes have a very aerodynamic design) .... Its all about physics baby =) ...
Don't take offence GotBoost? (joke) but just wanted to say this....
GotBoost? B!tch! GotBoost? I didn't think so....
The 04 WRXs are still ugly, but this is my own subjective opinion .... honestly although I own a 03 WRX (that kinda grew on me) the EVO is the best looking of the AWD bunch on the outside in IMHO.
Don't take offence GotBoost? (joke) but just wanted to say this....
GotBoost? B!tch! GotBoost? I didn't think so....
The 04 WRXs are still ugly, but this is my own subjective opinion .... honestly although I own a 03 WRX (that kinda grew on me) the EVO is the best looking of the AWD bunch on the outside in IMHO.
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; 01-29-2004 at 02:28 PM.
01-30-2004, 01:21 PM
#30
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Water does not fall from the sky in the shape of a teardrop. It falls as a sphere. Look at a slow motion picture. It's called surface tension. It's all about physics baby. To GotBoost?. You're right of course. It's all aerodynamics. I was just trying to separate downforce from resistence to forward motion. I looked at the link that Huck posted and didn't see any mention of station wagons. Did I miss something? You are right about station wagons leaving behind a lot of turbulance but I don't think that turbulance behind a car is as important as turbulance along the top or front surface. I'll still vote for the wagon. a hydrofoil is shaped like a wing because it is a wing. It's job is to provide lift. I'm afraid all this has nothing to do with the original question so I'll shut up.