brakes squeak after SS lines, Motul, and pad change (need some advice on my brakes)

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Old 01-21-2007 | 02:18 AM
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Unhappy need some advice on my brakes

I recently purchased a Stoptech Stage 1 brake upgrade kit for my 05 STI. It included stainless steel lines, front and rear ceramic axxis pads, and some motul brake fluid.

I had everything installed at a local shop near my house because I did not have the time to schedule an appt at the dealership, drive there, and leave my car for the whole day.

The car was fine for the first few days until i noticed that it started to squeak quietly at low speeds under normal braking.

I called the mechanic up and he told me that when you have new brake pads and used rotors they usually squeak, and the only way to get rid of the squeaking was to resurface all 4 rotors. I dont know much about brakes, but I really dont believe this guy's excuse. Even if this is the case, why didnt he tell me to resurface my rotors when i was gettin the pads and lines changed?

Well... today was my first day driving the car on the freeway since the pads were changed and now the squeaking has not only gotten alot louder, it starts to squeak when I slow down from about 35MPH. Before it only squeaked below 10MPH.

Can someone please clarify for me whether the mechanic was tellin the truth about new pads w/ used rotors? TIA

-Lyndon
Old 01-21-2007 | 02:28 AM
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Q Is it absolutely necessary to resurface the rotors every time the pads are replaced on disc brakes? It becomes very expensive to replace the rotors after one or two pad replacements.
A No. If the rotors are in good shape, it's not absolutely necessary to resurface brake rotors when installing new brake pads. But you're likely to end up replacing rotors at least every second or third pad replacement because of wear and tear anyway. In fact, several carmakers don't recommend resurfacing rotors at all -- just replace them when they're worn, warped or rusted.

First, let's define "resurface" a bit. Historically, resurfacing meant "turning" rotors on a machine lathe, removing enough metal to restore a true, flat, clean surface for the new pads to mate to. Often, rotors could be resurfaced or turned a couple of times before they were worn or machined down to their minimum thickness and in need of replacement.

Today, carmakers don't put much extra meat on rotors to allow significant machining before they reach their minimum safe thickness -- which is stamped on the hub of the rotor.

In order to avoid minor brake vibrations, it's never a bad idea to lightly "true" rotors to make sure they're absolutely flat and to provide a fresh new finish to help seat or bed new pads.

For do-it-yourselfers, if the rotor is still in good condition and doesn't exhibit any warping, thickness variation or corrosion, lightly scuffing or sanding the inner and outer surfaces of a rotor with a 400-grit sanding disc in an electric drill while rotating the rotor by hand often does a satisfactory job of preparing the rotor for new pads.
That should give you some insight. How were the rotors before you did the upgrade? Keep in mind that the noise could be caused by dust, also. The rotors on the STi are VERY hard and difficult to resurface. If someone does try it make sure they use an on-car lathe. Assuming their bits don't just brake.

Another thing is to make sure that runout (basically warpage) is measured and the rotor (if uninstalled) is cleaned well along with the hub and put back in a position that has the least amount of runout. Sometimes you can get squeeking if there is excessive runout, but you'll more likely notice vibration.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by Unit 91; 01-21-2007 at 02:30 AM.
Old 01-21-2007 | 02:52 AM
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No. The rule here is resurface when necessary, don’t resurface when it isn’t necessary. If the rotors and drums are in relatively good condition (smooth and flat with no deep scoring, cracks, distortion or other damage), they do not have to be resurfaced. Resurfacing unnecessarily reduces the thickness of these parts, which in turn shortens their remaining service life.

According to the uniform inspection guidelines developed by the Motorist Assurance Program (MAP), "friction material replacement alone does not warrant rotor reconditioning." Whether or not the rotors or drums need resurfacing or replacing depends entirely on their condition at the time the brakes are relined.

Even so, many mechanics prefer to resurface rotors and drums when relining the brakes to restore the friction surfaces to "like-new" condition and to minimize any chance of brake squeal.

A number of things must be considered to determine whether or not resurfacing is really necessary:

Surface condition. The most important criteria. Scoring, pitting or other minor surface imperfections should be cleaned up by resurfacing. Resurfacing is also recommended if the brakes have been noisy. If a rotor or drum is cracked, however, it must be replaced.
Lateral runout on rotors. This must be measured with a dial indicator against the face of the rotor. If rotor wobble exceeds OEM specs, reindexing it on the hub (if possible) may help reduce runout. But a better solution here is to resurface the rotor on the vehicle using a special "on-car" lathe. This type of equipment cuts the rotor true to its axis of rotation.
Rotor warpage. Variation in the thickness of the rotor or uneven spots on either rotor face will cause the brake pedal to pulsate or shudder when the brakes are applied. Flatness can be checked by placing a straight edge against both faces of the rotor. Thickness must be checked with a micrometer at six or more points around the rotor. If parallelism between rotor faces exceeds OEM specs (generally about .0005 in.), or if the rotor is warped or has hard spots (which are often discolored blue or black), the rotor should be resurfaced or replaced. Hard spots that develop from overheating or uneven tightening of lug nuts can create raised areas on the surface that often extend below the surface. The metallurgical changes in the rotor often cause the hard spots to return after a few thousand miles so replacing the rotor may be the best long-term fix.
Rotor thickness and drum diameter -- If a rotor is close to or at the minimum thickness specification (which is stamped on the rotor or may be found in a brake service reference book), it is too thin to be resurfaced and must be replaced. The same goes for drums, except the critical dimension here is the drum’s inside diameter (the maximum or discard diameter spec is stamped on the drum or listed in a reference book), When a rotor or drum is resurfaced, the least amount of metal possible should be removed to maximize the remaining service life of the part. It’s also a good idea to sand rotors after they’ve been turned with #120 to #150 grit sandpaper to create a smooth, nondirectional or crosshatch finish. Sanding helps "plateau" the surface by knocking off the sharp peaks left by a lathe. Some brake lathe manufacturers say this final step isn’t necessary because their equipment leaves such a smooth finish. Maybe so. But sanding is still a good way to ensure proper pad seating and minimize the chance of noise with semi-metallic pads. Finally, rotors and drums should always be cleaned with alcohol or brake cleaner before they are reinstalled. Resurfacing leaves a lot of metallic debris on the surface which can embed itself in the new brake linings and cause noise problems. Even if the rotors or drums have not been resurfaced, cleaning is recommended to remove dirt and grease (which can contaminate new linings and cause uneven braking or grabbing).

As for replacing or rebuilding the disc brake calipers when the brakes are relined, this too isn’t absolutely necessary -- but not doing so may be asking for trouble later. A caliper that’s leaking brake fluid, is damaged, has a frozen piston, or is causing uneven pad wear obviously needs to be rebuilt or replaced. But what about a caliper that isn’t leaking and seems to be working fine? Those who subscribe to the "don’t fix it unless it’s broken" philosophy of brake repair think they’re saving time and money by leaving the calipers alone. Maybe so. But most brake experts say it makes sense to go ahead and do the calipers when the brakes are relined. Here’s why:

Brake calipers, like any other mechanical component, wear and corrode with age. Every time the brakes are applied, the back-and-forth motion of the caliper pistons produces a slight amount of wear. At the same time, moisture is building up in the fluid. After several years of service, the fluid may contain as much as 3% water -- which is enough to produce visible corrosion in the caliper bores and on steel pistons. As the surface of the pistons become rough, they scour the seals with every application of the brakes. Eventually this will lead to fluid leaks and pad contamination.

So even if a caliper isn’t leaking, it’s still aging inside. Rubber piston seals and dust boots harden and become brittle over time. One of the jobs the piston seals do besides keep the fluid where it belongs is to help retract the pistons when the brakes are released. When a piston moves out, it twists the square cut seal slightly. This helps pull the piston back when the brakes are released to keep the pads from dragging against the rotors. But as a seal ages and loses elasticity, it doesn’t do as good a job of pulling back the piston. Consequently, the pads start to drag resulting in reduced fuel economy, a possible brake pull and/or accelerated or uneven pad wear.

When boots get old, they often crack or split, allowing dirt and water to enter the piston bore area. The result can be accelerated seal wear, piston corrosion and sticking. What’s more, if the pistons are pushed back in to accept new pads any dirt that’s found its way behind the boots will be shoved back into the caliper bores. This too, can contribute to sticking, binding and wear.

So there are valid reasons for rebuilding or replacing the calipers when the brakes are relined.

The same arguments that hold true for disc brake calipers also apply to the wheel cylinders in drum brakes. As long as they’re not leaking, sticking or damaged, you can leave them alone and take your chances. Or, you can do the wise thing and rebuild or replace them when you reline the brakes for preventative maintenance.
Another good article.

The standard in the industry was resurface every time, but that is changing. Finally.
Old 01-21-2007 | 06:43 AM
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I'd have to see the condition of the rotors before the pad change. My experience with Axxis Metal Master and Axxis Ultimate pads are that they dust a lot but are hardly any noisier than factory WRX pads - no squeaking. I did not have my rotors resurfaced because I replaced them with aftermarket slotted rotors.

You might pull the wheels off and check the position of the sheetmetal wear indicator tabs that are supposed to be installed on the pads. I don't think it's possible to install them the wrong way but these wear indicator tabs make a loud squeak or squealing noise when the brakes are applied if the pads are worn and in need of replacement. Anything else look like it is making contact with the calipers when the wheels rotate?

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Old 01-21-2007 | 12:58 PM
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Thanks Unit for clearing that up for me.

Wingless, the rotors all look and feel fine. There is only about 18K on my car and it usually sits in my garage for most of the week.

I think Monday im gonna bring the car back to the mechanic and try to hustle him for a better price on resurfacing my rotors since he failed to tell me to do so when I was changing pads.

Thanks again guys!
Old 01-21-2007 | 02:05 PM
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I don't know what that shop quoted you for rotor resurfacing but my local machine shop did a pair of rotors from an older Forester for $10. That's an outstanding price and I don't expect many shops to charge so little (I would expect at least 2 or 3 times that amount). The turnaround time for the pair was one hour and they came back with a beautiful crosshatch pattern that makes for fast and even pad break-in. The only downside was that it looks like they removed a bit more material than is ideal but we didn't mike the thickness beforehand, nor did we specify the minimum rotor thickness that we could live with. I'm sure that if we had specified a max removal amount of say 0.75 mm, they would have complied.

Maybe you can find a shop to resurface your rotors and install them yourself, rather than negotiate back and forth with that other shop. Your system is already assembled so there's no need to re-bleed the system after you re-install the calipers, as long as you don't open the lines. Just suspend the calipers so that their weight does not put tension on the lines.

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Old 01-21-2007 | 04:42 PM
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You really should have Subaru rotors cut ON the car. Subaru specifies they be done this way to minimize runout on the finished rotor.

$10 for a pair is awesome. We charged $15/per off car at my old shop.
Old 01-21-2007 | 04:53 PM
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I've seen mobile services that show up at shops and gas stations (with service bays) that will perform an on-car rotor resurfacing.

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Old 01-22-2007 | 03:14 AM
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I would like to get everything done the right way (having the rotors resurfaced while on the car), but so far i havent been able to find a shop in San Francisco that has the right equipment to do so.

The mechanic that installed everything on my car only has one of those grinding machines where you have to remove the rotors from the hub. He is charging me only 40 bucks for the resurfacing itself (for all 4 rotors) plus an extra 130 in labor. Unfortunately I dont know how to remove the rotors myself.

Im not really trying to drive too far from SF because the squealing seems to be just getting worse and I don't want to damage my rotors beyond repair.

Ahh.. what a headache! If anyone knows any shops around SF/Daly City/San Bruno area that will grind my rotors while on the car please let me know. TIA!
Old 01-22-2007 | 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Wingless Wonder
I've seen mobile services that show up at shops and gas stations (with service bays) that will perform an on-car rotor resurfacing.

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Really? That's cool. I've not seen that. Seems like a good service.
Old 01-22-2007 | 10:18 AM
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It is the axxis pads causing your squeak those pads SUCK
I had them with my stop tech setup and they squeak very bad
i changed to EBC red pads and now the squeak is gone.
Old 01-22-2007 | 10:40 AM
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sounds like the mechanic is giving you a bunch of bs.

squeals are:
pads
install (clips/shims installed properly?)
cleaned all brake parts being reused
new pad broken in properly?

the rotors needing to resurface... with 18k and no warping before I don't think your rotors need to be resurfaced. In your case what the mechanic should've done was to hit the rotors quickly with a sander to take off any buildup of the old pads and clean it with brake cleaner.

I believe if the rotors need to be resuraced you should buy new rotors.
Old 01-22-2007 | 11:31 AM
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I swapped for Axxis Ultimates when the OEM pads wore out. The rotors looked in good condition so I simply replaced the pads. They work great, no squeaking, good bite, but lots of dust which the Axxis seem to be known for.


"Even so, many mechanics prefer to resurface rotors and drums when relining the brakes to restore the friction surfaces to "like-new" condition"
Not surprising, after all, it is more work to charge for.

W.R.T. squeaking/squealing, I wonder if they cleaned and reinstalled the backing plates correctly? There is also a grease that you are supposed to apply between the backing plate and the pad. I didn't bother and figured I'd only go buy some if they squealed.

You should consult StopTech's web site and see if there are any FAQs on squealing. I'm sure that they are more impartial than the mechanic.

Last edited by Lorry; 01-22-2007 at 11:38 AM.
Old 01-22-2007 | 12:36 PM
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Ok well after speaking to a number of mechanics, one being a fellow STI owner and good friend of mine, I was told that with the OEM rotors w/ aftermarket pads (especially Axxis pads), is not a good combo to begin with. It will more than likely squeak and resurfacing may not always help.

Im just gonna scrap the idea of trying to resurface them and just buy me some slotted rotors. Before I order them though, im gonna have the mechanic that installed my pads double check everything to make sure he didnt do anything wrong.

Thanks to everyone that contributed!

Lyndon
Old 01-22-2007 | 01:30 PM
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Make sure you check the tolerances of the rotors before attempting to resurface, as you may not have enough rotor left after the reseurface (mine were like that). Also most aftermarket pads squeak period. I had the SSS endless pads. The only thing that helped was crc brake quiet (the red stuff) and applied it to the back of the pad plate.



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