Bible to be taught in school, in Texas.
08-19-2009, 08:41 AM
#152
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sorry religious nuts, this thread isnt helping your brand or convincing anyone. i wish the religious, i mean those of faith, would argue for just that: faith. and not some entity that simply tells you what is right and wrong and that made everything. i would understand it much more if people just said that faith is what brings people of different backgrounds together, faith is what makes us better people to work harder to help one another. instead, all i see is "you must believe this, or you will burn in hell." shows some ignorance if you ask me
08-19-2009, 09:19 AM
#153
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so gravity is "just a theory" to you, huh
gravity is a natural law
"In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation; in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. The law of gravity is a scientific fact that bodies of mass attract each other, but there are different theories of gravity that attempt to explain how bodies of mass are attracted to each other."
same applies to evolution. fruit flies changing generation to generation is an observation of generational organism change. organisms changing generation to generation is called evolution, evolution is fact.
gravity is a natural law
"In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation; in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts. The law of gravity is a scientific fact that bodies of mass attract each other, but there are different theories of gravity that attempt to explain how bodies of mass are attracted to each other."
same applies to evolution. fruit flies changing generation to generation is an observation of generational organism change. organisms changing generation to generation is called evolution, evolution is fact.
Last edited by Jin; 08-19-2009 at 10:09 AM.
08-19-2009, 09:38 AM
#154
Sorry Medic, but ID/Creationism poses way more questions than it answers. You can't use the retort "Well where did all the mass come from before the Big Bang?" without also applying it to your 'theory' as well. Who created the Creator? Just because we have no found the answer to something doesn't automatically attribute it to a divine origin. That flaw in reasoning is call "The God of the gaps" hypothesis. "There is a gap in this explanation, therefore it must be because God is responsible for this whole phenomenon." That is not logical.
As for the original topic, I am fine with the Bible being taught in school along with other religious texts in a historical context. Science and religion do not mix. The BB and evolution are NOT world views, they are NOT philosophy; they are Scientific theory. Do they have holes? Yes. Do I think we will find the answer to those gaps? Yes, absolutely. Think of where our understanding of the universe around us was not 300 years ago. Think of what we know now and we will know 300 years from now.
As for the original topic, I am fine with the Bible being taught in school along with other religious texts in a historical context. Science and religion do not mix. The BB and evolution are NOT world views, they are NOT philosophy; they are Scientific theory. Do they have holes? Yes. Do I think we will find the answer to those gaps? Yes, absolutely. Think of where our understanding of the universe around us was not 300 years ago. Think of what we know now and we will know 300 years from now.
08-19-2009, 10:47 AM
#155
How is that a flaw? An all powerful eternal and omnipotent being created everything with His Word. It is a matter of faith, but it is consistent with the rest of the Bible. What God says is.
On the other hand, the BB and M-t-M evolution have BIG flaws. ie:
1) Where did the original matter that went BANG come from?
On the other hand, the BB and M-t-M evolution have BIG flaws. ie:
1) Where did the original matter that went BANG come from?
2) No one can logically explain or prove how inorganic material from the BANG became organic material, which "led" to the existence of life. There is no process know to man in which inorganic material becomes organic.
3) Our DNA is encoded with... wait for it... wait for it... CODED Material Coded material is Information and NO NATURAL process known to man gives birth to information. So with a Secular Humanist belief how do you explain where it came from?
Coded material is Information and NO NATURAL process known to man gives birth to information. So with a Secular Humanist belief how do you explain where it came from?
4) M-t-M Evolution... Requires the opposite of what we see in nature with regards to information. When reproduction and mutation occur, we see a loss in information. M-t-M Evolution requires seeing a GAIN in information, which does not happen. This is not the same as adaptation. Adaptation is real, M-t-M Evolution is not.
Mutations occur in 3 forms: 1) Beneficial mutation based (sometimes) on natural pressures 2) detrimental mutations (see: genetic defects/diseases. These lead to death in an organism, either immediate or long term) and 3) benign mutations. These have no affect positive or negative and create 'junk DNA'. All organisms have lots of this 'junk DNA'.
The only thing I think you have right here is that (cellular)reproduction does sometimes have a bi-product of losing information. This is why immortality can not happen. Your cells (and more specifically, your DNA) is degenerate. You can only copy DNA so many times before so much is lost that you cant build anything with what is left. However, that does not somehow negate evolution in any way.
Evolution does not have anything to do with gaining genetic mater, code, etc. Its a re-organization. Evolution occurs directly from mutation. Mutation is neither a loss or gain. When a ribosome goes down a DNA chain, it's job is to translate that string of DNA into a copy. Sometimes, they get the code wrong and substitute a T for an A, or a U for a G, causing that string of code to express a slightly different phenotype (aka mutation). If this mutation is advantageous to the organism as a whole, it will have an advantage over other organisms of it's same species. If there is a sufficient natural pressure, only those organisms with this mix-up, this mutation, this advantage, will survive to reproduce. Over long enough periods of time, these mutations can add up to, you guessed it... a new species! a la Evolution.
Teaching religion in schools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTepA...e=channel_page
While the title is a bit controversial, it has some answers to the questions you propose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOx...eature=channel
This is also from Richard Dawkins, and includes a good Q&A session at the end on how to answer some of the same questions you have asked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbza-...e=channel_page
Do I think any of this will sway you? No, not at all. But just as you keep telling everyone in this thread, I'm just trying to answer your questions to the best of my scientific ability
08-19-2009, 11:00 AM
#160
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everyone here says "religion" please use that word when you understand it. religion is man made. Faith was given by God, which happens to be my belief.. you will never hear a Godly person truly call themselves religious. Because being faithful is what we are supposed to be.
08-19-2009, 11:01 AM
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from what i understand, a theory, is something is not something to be proven, but something that scientists try hard to disprove. so far, there hasnt been any breakthroughs that discredits evolution. evolution got a huge bump after we got into genetics, it supports evolution.
sounds like you've explained religion, not a scientific fact.
i dont see why the bible is more important than the greek mythology, roman mythology, egyptian, etc. which were all religions. even including current religions.
only difference is that bible is more popular than the ones before.
sounds like you've explained religion, not a scientific fact.
i dont see why the bible is more important than the greek mythology, roman mythology, egyptian, etc. which were all religions. even including current religions.
only difference is that bible is more popular than the ones before.
The evidence against molecules-to-man evolution is incontrovertible. There have been plenty of discoveries that prove molecules-to-man evolution is impossible.
They still have not answered the four foundamental questions which form the foundation of their religion. They can't say where the bang matter came from, how inorganic matter became organic and led to life, explain the existence of information in our DNA, or find a natural process that increases genetic information as opposed to the loss of information we see in genetics with regards to reproduction and mutations.
Genetics does not support evolution. DNA is coded information... where does information come from? Not the natural world. Only intelligence gives birth to information.
Check out the fossil record... if this planet has existed for millions of years, over which uncountable amounts of life have evolved from nothing to everything we would have a HUGE fossil record showing every stage of the process. We would have gross amounts of examples and data, yet there is no transitional fossil record. Even Darwin noted that the non-existence of a transitional fossil record was one of the biggest issues for evolution.
As well as things like "the dinosaur plant" which are found in the fossil record and were thought to be millions of years old. That is, until they were found in the hills of Australia unchanged "millions" of years later... no evolution in "millions" of years... right...
The Bible is different because of the prophecies of the Old Testament about the coming of Christ and the fulfillment in the New Testament. Christ bifurcated the world and said that He was the One, the Truth, and the Way to father. The Bible is what it claims to be, the divinely inspired Word of God.
No book has been written like the Bible has.
The Bible is the revelation of God which was recorded over about 2,000 years, originally in 3 languages, transcribed by over 40 authors ranging from kings to slaves and farmers to warriors, in times of peace and in times of war, as well as across three continents with such a consistency that its origin is only explainable by authorship of an all knowing, eternal Creator who made Himself known. No other book from ancient or modern times has the consistency the Bible does with the above noted criteria.
The textbooks of science and secular humanism change every year, the Bible has never changed.
Like previously posted, the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings and prevail, standing alone as the best preserved literary works of all antiquity.
If you want me to post the stats like already posted by someone else it's no problem
08-19-2009, 11:11 AM
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I don't think I've said anything offensive, correct me if I'm wrong.
I just don't think you should to put peoples religions down like you are.
We don't mock your beliefs. So don't mock ours. Like I said questioning is great. But there's a line.
Yeah this is my first time using the Internet machine actually. You wanna come over and help me figure it out
I just don't think you should to put peoples religions down like you are.
We don't mock your beliefs. So don't mock ours. Like I said questioning is great. But there's a line.
Yeah this is my first time using the Internet machine actually. You wanna come over and help me figure it out
So long as people don't show respect for my beliefs, I have no inclination to give them respect for theirs.
I'll be happy to come over and help you out, but be warned: I give the lessons in the nude.
08-19-2009, 11:15 AM
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The gain in information is in mutations that occur in DNA or RNA replications. Causing different proteins to be created that then have different functions. Over billions of years, a time man can not fully understand simple organism and become more complex organism. So we do gain "information" through mutations, since new DNA sequences are created that can then code for different proteins.
Adaption is on organism to organism basis. If this adaption is passed on such as in skin color in humans and evolution occurs. I know Black, Asian and White people aren't different species but if each race was isolated for millions upon millions of years new species would occur since new adaptation would arise.
Adaption is on organism to organism basis. If this adaption is passed on such as in skin color in humans and evolution occurs. I know Black, Asian and White people aren't different species but if each race was isolated for millions upon millions of years new species would occur since new adaptation would arise.
Mutations are changes that occur in our genes—our DNA. They are the result of such things as harmful radiation. Evolutionists admit that such changes cause mistakes in our genes. But they claim that sometimes mutations can produce new information. For instance, to change a reptile into a bird—scales to feathers, for example—requires a lot of added new information not previously available in the genes of the reptile.
But Dr. Lee Spetner, formerly of Johns Hopkins University, has spent years searching for that one piece of evidence to show that a mutation can actually increase information. In his book Not By Chance, he said:
But in all the reading I’ve done in the life-sciences literature, I’ve never found a mutation that added information … All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
In other words, real science in the present shows clearly that mutations cause things to lose information. This is exactly what the Bible teaches: because of sin and the curse, everything is running down, not improving.
But Dr. Lee Spetner, formerly of Johns Hopkins University, has spent years searching for that one piece of evidence to show that a mutation can actually increase information. In his book Not By Chance, he said:
But in all the reading I’ve done in the life-sciences literature, I’ve never found a mutation that added information … All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.
In other words, real science in the present shows clearly that mutations cause things to lose information. This is exactly what the Bible teaches: because of sin and the curse, everything is running down, not improving.
Theoretically, genetic mutations can cause one of two things:
Loss of information1
Gain of new information
Virtually all observed mutations are in the category of loss of information. This is different from loss or gain of function. Some mutations can cause an organism to lose genetic information and yet gain some type of function. This is rare but has happened. These types of mutations are often called beneficial mutations.
For example, if a beetle loses the information to make a wing on a windy island, the mutation is beneficial because the beetle doesn’t get blown out to sea and killed. Genetically, the mutation caused a loss of information but was helpful to the beetle. Thus, it was a beneficial mutation.
Besides mutations that cause information loss, in theory there could also be mutations that cause a gain of new information. There are only a few alleged cases of such mutations. However, if a mutated DNA strand were built up with a group of base pairs that didn’t do anything, this strand wouldn’t be useful. Therefore, to be useful to an organism, a mutation that has a gain of new information must also cause a gain of new function.
Loss of information1
Gain of new information
Virtually all observed mutations are in the category of loss of information. This is different from loss or gain of function. Some mutations can cause an organism to lose genetic information and yet gain some type of function. This is rare but has happened. These types of mutations are often called beneficial mutations.
For example, if a beetle loses the information to make a wing on a windy island, the mutation is beneficial because the beetle doesn’t get blown out to sea and killed. Genetically, the mutation caused a loss of information but was helpful to the beetle. Thus, it was a beneficial mutation.
Besides mutations that cause information loss, in theory there could also be mutations that cause a gain of new information. There are only a few alleged cases of such mutations. However, if a mutated DNA strand were built up with a group of base pairs that didn’t do anything, this strand wouldn’t be useful. Therefore, to be useful to an organism, a mutation that has a gain of new information must also cause a gain of new function.
08-19-2009, 11:15 AM
#164
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If left to her own devices, Natural Selection should work to better a species; the weak, deformed, defective members die off before passing on their defective DNA.
However, humans interfere with Natural Selection with programs like Welfare, MediCare, Food Stamps, etc.
This allows the weaker members of our species to reproduce, bringing down the entire species.
We are the only species that sacrifice the strong for the weak.
If left to her own devices, Natural Selection should work to better a species; the weak, deformed, defective members die off before passing on their defective DNA.
However, humans interfere with Natural Selection with programs like Welfare, MediCare, Food Stamps, etc.
This allows the weaker members of our species to reproduce, bringing down the entire species.
We are the only species that sacrifice the strong for the weak.
08-19-2009, 11:21 AM
#165
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You haven't said anything offensive, but your "Christian brothers" have, and I don't see you telling them to cool it. Double standard?
So long as people don't show respect for my beliefs, I have no inclination to give them respect for theirs.
I'll be happy to come over and help you out, but be warned: I give the lessons in the nude.
So long as people don't show respect for my beliefs, I have no inclination to give them respect for theirs.
I'll be happy to come over and help you out, but be warned: I give the lessons in the nude.
Promises...promises...promises....