The 2006 STi Motor that Blew Bits @ the EQ T-Hill Track Day! ...huh?
#63
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Car Info: 07 STi, 02 F150-FX4, 04 ZX-636, 07 990 SuperDuke
Just thinking about the motor that blew, I wonder if one of the injectors decided to stop working properly. That would make for an interesting incident which could cause an anomaly such as this. You mentioned you were logging your coolant temperature, were you logging anything else such as injector duty cycle?
Also, What motor oil were you running?
Also, What motor oil were you running?
Last edited by pete; 06-25-2009 at 01:58 AM.
#65
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Motor oil weight, Temps, Tolerances of motor internals, and tuning all play a KEY role into a motor failing...
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
*disclaimer: I have no idea who built the motors, what they are, or what oil was being run...I'm just pointing out simple tid bits on my end and what we've learned over the years. some call it common sense, thats in the eye of the beholder...just thought I would share my $0.02 which = not a whole hell of a lot
-Noah
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
*disclaimer: I have no idea who built the motors, what they are, or what oil was being run...I'm just pointing out simple tid bits on my end and what we've learned over the years. some call it common sense, thats in the eye of the beholder...just thought I would share my $0.02 which = not a whole hell of a lot
-Noah
Last edited by LICmotorsports; 06-25-2009 at 08:26 AM.
#66
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Motor oil weight, Temps, Tolerances of motor internals, and tuning all play a KEY role into a motor failing...
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
my $0.02
-Noah
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
my $0.02
-Noah
#67
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you bet...and that is to be expected on a HOT day with lots of track time....that fact you saw your oil pressure dropping proves it.
in our race car we have a system that allows for apprx 7 qts of oil...WE NEVER and I mean NEVER get cooling issues...but we used to until we did the oil cooler upgrade.
its not worth the wear and tear to not run them on track.
-Noah
in our race car we have a system that allows for apprx 7 qts of oil...WE NEVER and I mean NEVER get cooling issues...but we used to until we did the oil cooler upgrade.
its not worth the wear and tear to not run them on track.
-Noah
#68
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#69
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Motor oil weight, Temps, Tolerances of motor internals, and tuning all play a KEY role into a motor failing...
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
*disclaimer: I have no idea who built the motors, what they are, or what oil was being run...I'm just pointing out simple tid bits on my end and what we've learned over the years. some call it common sense, thats in the eye of the beholder...just thought I would share my $0.02 which = not a whole hell of a lot
-Noah
I can personally say that most often when a motor does go KABOOM (literally shooting out the case) you have other issues and normally not related to a tune (sure could you have an all around bad setup and it all together takes everything out...you bet). I've know Ed long and well enough to know he tunes very well, to the best of his ability, and no different than any of the tuners makes them as safe as possible (NO TUNER is interested in blowing motors, do they all have them under there belt...YOU BET, we all make mistakes). Everyone likes to point fingers at someone. At the end of the day, each of these cars have recorded data, and a teardown will explain some of it..but with both the logs and physical teardown you can paint an accurate picture.
In addition Motor oil weight ON TRACK...DO NOT RUN 5/10w30, we live in a very warm area and its a very warm time of year. I bet the track was over 120+ degrees if it was 100+ outside...little things like that are devestating to a motor, the oil thins out, motor heats up, tolerances CHANGE drastically when it doesnt have the lubrication/cooling properties anymore. In addition 5w30 is probably one of the worst oils for track conditions, as to make a 5w it takes a lot more breaking down from its original state to get it to that.
we recommend Swepco 20w50, or Mobil 1 15w50 for track days, in addition if you are a track buff, OIL COOLERS are life savers....no good reason not to run one when on track (and yes they are expensive but so is your motor).
*disclaimer: I have no idea who built the motors, what they are, or what oil was being run...I'm just pointing out simple tid bits on my end and what we've learned over the years. some call it common sense, thats in the eye of the beholder...just thought I would share my $0.02 which = not a whole hell of a lot
-Noah
If you don't feel like getting a pre-built kit, I am sure any of the bay area shops can put together one for you. I got one from GST that is practically a replica of what they have on their L.
#70
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again most oil coolers are pricey...if you go for the cheap ones, well thats what you get out of it as well.
Greddy probably makes one of the best oil cooler kits...other than that, we do our own kits as well (which is even bigger than Greddy's kit)...and again YES they are pricey. small price to pay if you ask me.
-Noah
Greddy probably makes one of the best oil cooler kits...other than that, we do our own kits as well (which is even bigger than Greddy's kit)...and again YES they are pricey. small price to pay if you ask me.
-Noah
#71
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Only thing that SUCKS about forged pistons is the sound of the engine when it's cold... When you start up the motor sounds like it has a CRAZY case of piston slap, that is until the pistons warm up and expand and no longer make that awful sound.
But like others said, if you have your motor torn down, it's soooo worth it to get pistons and other forged internals.
But like others said, if you have your motor torn down, it's soooo worth it to get pistons and other forged internals.
#72
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again most oil coolers are pricey...if you go for the cheap ones, well thats what you get out of it as well.
Greddy probably makes one of the best oil cooler kits...other than that, we do our own kits as well (which is even bigger than Greddy's kit)...and again YES they are pricey. small price to pay if you ask me.
-Noah
Greddy probably makes one of the best oil cooler kits...other than that, we do our own kits as well (which is even bigger than Greddy's kit)...and again YES they are pricey. small price to pay if you ask me.
-Noah
It's just like anything important, do it right the first time and save yourself the headache and $$$
#73
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It was definitely a hell of a day out there. We were seeing track temps get up to 120F and could barely do 2 laps in any of our cars before water and oil temps started rising extremely rapidly. One of our own cars hit 285F oil temps for a brief period of time but managed to survive. I believe if it was running a 30 or 40 weight oil, it wouldn't have faired so well either. Under these kinds of conditions, its all about the right parts (oil cooler, radiator), the right fluids (heavier oil, proper coolant mixture), proper engine tolerances, a good safe tune, and of course driver vigilance to keep an eye on everything and cool down when necessary. Even the bone stock rental Corvette was seeing some extremely high oil temps and required periodic cool down laps. There was also a 2.5RS (non-turbo) that let go half way through the day with what appears to be a head gasket failure.
JHammer's car has seen 15 track days since we tuned it with no issues until now. This time, however, the extreme conditions and use caused a serious, atypical failure that no tune could have caused or prevented. Knowing that the car would see a lot of track time, he tune was left quite conservative. He also took the necessary precautions running 100 octane to prevent knock and cool things down a bit, but the car lacked an oil cooler and definitely saw some high temps. I've never personally seen a subie motor blow a hole in the block before, so it'll be interesting to see exactly what happened. Most likely a bearing or side clearance was set on the tight side of the stock spec from the factory and the expansion from the extreme heat caused it to seize, sending a rod through the block case. This is of course a guess at this point, but its the most likely explanation for this type of failure.
04caliwrx's car spun a bearing on his relatively new engine from another builder. I checked his ECU after the fact and there were no signs of recorder knock events. From what he communicated to me, he was never instructed on what weight oil to run and he had no idea what the clearances were set to in his engine and what oil was appropriate for it. Running oil that's too thin to begin with for a specific engine, and then throwing a ton of heat at it will generally thin the oil out significantly and cause a huge drop in oil pressure. Bearings tend not to like tons of heat and low oil pressure and won't put up with it for long. I don't know the specifics of his engine build, so I won't try to make any other assumptions about what happened until we pull it apart.
Its always easy to blame parts, tunes, whatever, but remember that these are not normal conditions and situations and proper precautions MUST be taken. There are many thousands of moving parts under the hood and any one of them can fail from extreme conditions and cause other serious failures. Most of the cars at this track day were running our tunes and had zero issues. We had customers out there ranging from simple stage 2 setups with quality tunes, all the way to our own fully built engines with large turbo setups and they all made it out just fine. Its certainly sad to see this sort of thing happen to anyone, but its not at all fair to point fingers at any particular part of the car/setup before knowing all the details of the situation.
Again, this sort of thing is always sad to see, but we will take good care of these cars and customers and they will be back on the road better than ever and much more ready and prepared for their next track day adventure .
Thanks
-- Ed
JHammer's car has seen 15 track days since we tuned it with no issues until now. This time, however, the extreme conditions and use caused a serious, atypical failure that no tune could have caused or prevented. Knowing that the car would see a lot of track time, he tune was left quite conservative. He also took the necessary precautions running 100 octane to prevent knock and cool things down a bit, but the car lacked an oil cooler and definitely saw some high temps. I've never personally seen a subie motor blow a hole in the block before, so it'll be interesting to see exactly what happened. Most likely a bearing or side clearance was set on the tight side of the stock spec from the factory and the expansion from the extreme heat caused it to seize, sending a rod through the block case. This is of course a guess at this point, but its the most likely explanation for this type of failure.
04caliwrx's car spun a bearing on his relatively new engine from another builder. I checked his ECU after the fact and there were no signs of recorder knock events. From what he communicated to me, he was never instructed on what weight oil to run and he had no idea what the clearances were set to in his engine and what oil was appropriate for it. Running oil that's too thin to begin with for a specific engine, and then throwing a ton of heat at it will generally thin the oil out significantly and cause a huge drop in oil pressure. Bearings tend not to like tons of heat and low oil pressure and won't put up with it for long. I don't know the specifics of his engine build, so I won't try to make any other assumptions about what happened until we pull it apart.
Its always easy to blame parts, tunes, whatever, but remember that these are not normal conditions and situations and proper precautions MUST be taken. There are many thousands of moving parts under the hood and any one of them can fail from extreme conditions and cause other serious failures. Most of the cars at this track day were running our tunes and had zero issues. We had customers out there ranging from simple stage 2 setups with quality tunes, all the way to our own fully built engines with large turbo setups and they all made it out just fine. Its certainly sad to see this sort of thing happen to anyone, but its not at all fair to point fingers at any particular part of the car/setup before knowing all the details of the situation.
Again, this sort of thing is always sad to see, but we will take good care of these cars and customers and they will be back on the road better than ever and much more ready and prepared for their next track day adventure .
Thanks
-- Ed
Last edited by EQ Tuning; 06-25-2009 at 03:41 PM.
#75
I would have thought you should be asking the builders of the motor (AHQ) to find out why it seized. They might not want to deal with it if another shop has opened up the motor.
With a Motor as pricey as this I'm guessing you also got guages...what were they saying?