Forester FI, questions, suggestions, help?
02-20-2004 | 09:23 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Forester FI, questions, suggestions, help?
This is a repeat post from another forum, thought I would gather the advice from all I can find to help me make the best choices. I am still undecided between the Forester and the Impreza wagon, I do like the lighter weight is the only real reason but a Forester will probably stay right side up alot longer for me as not so inclined to get too crazy driving it in the boonies.
"I am new to Subarus but not new to modding cars, relatively new but fairly well versed in FI.
I have searched and read alot of threads here but I have some other ideas I am considering and wanted to post them all in one place and see whay you guys think.
1) I am a firm believer in Methanol and Water injection and have a D2 Aquamist setup on my 10:1 Matrix at 12 PSI, quite sure it helps keep things in one piece. I run a 50/50 mix in it, the 2D reads the aux fuel injector pulses and meters the M/W according to the amount fuel I am adding.
2)I have had very good luck with aux fuel injection, ran a year at 12 PSI before my boost controller failed and hit 15 PSI, was fun for a few seconds, shut it down, knock, knock, knock, oops.
The fuel unit was private branded but very very good, alot of data points to tune it very acurately, not at liberty to say the manf, I have two units on hand so could use one if need be, prefer aux fuel to RRFPR but could be swayed with the right info to change my views. The Matrix puts out 250 WHP and 230 torque at 12 PSI, no kidding, quite quick with LSD and mostly gutted interior, autocross car that it was, SM and very competitive in So Cal. Fun in the dirt up here in No Cal as well now but selling it to go AWD.
3) I also have a NIB Unichip and the boost control module I can use. Some seem to think it not that great, the past US distributor could have been part of the issue, I am on great terms with Jack, the new US dist and only 300 or so miles from his shop so can tune there if I decide to use it, they have a new Dastek dyno.
If I use it I can control timing as well as boost, aux fuel, the M/W if I want to bypass the contoller it came with, etc. The boost can be set to come in smoothly instead of going from no boost to full suddenly if need be to protect the drivetrain (I am considering an auto, I know, ***?) It can also trim the boost back at higher RPMs, easier on the internals and I want to stay stock for some time in that area.
4)I plan on building all the piping from intake to exhaust tip and have a FMIC, should be fun getting air flow, do not want a hood scoop, this is stealth all the way. So, I understand twin turbos are not a good thing due to exhaust pulses but how about a crossover design, may be a bit of work but I am game, I built the system on my Matrix, second one that is, turbo shop setup was not all that great, mine worked much better and looked 10 times better. (A very big US and a Japanese mag were going to publish the car but I cancelled the fully built motor project and semi-retired to far No Cal) What turbos? They would have to be affordable, I have a small budget now, got to get used to alot lower income but the roads here are worth it
5)How much boost with a finely tuned fuel, timing, M/W injection system would be considered safe to run? I want low end response and midband power above all, this is a daily driver
6)I use 10% toluene in my Matrix, buy it by the case so not all that pricey but I really do not want to use it in a daily driver so will stay with 91 cat pee. I can however setup a dual boost program that allows me to up the boost, retune the timing and fuel with the flip of a switch for higher octane days, I do not think this to wise on the 2.5 from what I have learned so far, maybe later if I installed the STI block I can run 20% to get a 5 point gain in octane or run race fuel, etc, but then again, with lower compression can tune without it or high low settings, hmmm, sounds like more work ahead when the time comes, cool!
So, my questions for now:
a) How much boost can a moderate mileage, fully tuned stock 2.5 Forester take with the above mentioned ideas?
b) What turbo if one is ultimately best?
c) What turbos if resonable to gowith a twin setup, affordable and proper size, etc?
d) Follow what has been done and live with it or do it a bit differently? (to the best of my knowledge, could all have been done before, let me know if so please).
Thanks for reading through this mini book and I hope I make some kind of sense."
Rick
"I am new to Subarus but not new to modding cars, relatively new but fairly well versed in FI.
I have searched and read alot of threads here but I have some other ideas I am considering and wanted to post them all in one place and see whay you guys think.
1) I am a firm believer in Methanol and Water injection and have a D2 Aquamist setup on my 10:1 Matrix at 12 PSI, quite sure it helps keep things in one piece. I run a 50/50 mix in it, the 2D reads the aux fuel injector pulses and meters the M/W according to the amount fuel I am adding.
2)I have had very good luck with aux fuel injection, ran a year at 12 PSI before my boost controller failed and hit 15 PSI, was fun for a few seconds, shut it down, knock, knock, knock, oops.
The fuel unit was private branded but very very good, alot of data points to tune it very acurately, not at liberty to say the manf, I have two units on hand so could use one if need be, prefer aux fuel to RRFPR but could be swayed with the right info to change my views. The Matrix puts out 250 WHP and 230 torque at 12 PSI, no kidding, quite quick with LSD and mostly gutted interior, autocross car that it was, SM and very competitive in So Cal. Fun in the dirt up here in No Cal as well now but selling it to go AWD.
3) I also have a NIB Unichip and the boost control module I can use. Some seem to think it not that great, the past US distributor could have been part of the issue, I am on great terms with Jack, the new US dist and only 300 or so miles from his shop so can tune there if I decide to use it, they have a new Dastek dyno.
If I use it I can control timing as well as boost, aux fuel, the M/W if I want to bypass the contoller it came with, etc. The boost can be set to come in smoothly instead of going from no boost to full suddenly if need be to protect the drivetrain (I am considering an auto, I know, ***?) It can also trim the boost back at higher RPMs, easier on the internals and I want to stay stock for some time in that area.
4)I plan on building all the piping from intake to exhaust tip and have a FMIC, should be fun getting air flow, do not want a hood scoop, this is stealth all the way. So, I understand twin turbos are not a good thing due to exhaust pulses but how about a crossover design, may be a bit of work but I am game, I built the system on my Matrix, second one that is, turbo shop setup was not all that great, mine worked much better and looked 10 times better. (A very big US and a Japanese mag were going to publish the car but I cancelled the fully built motor project and semi-retired to far No Cal) What turbos? They would have to be affordable, I have a small budget now, got to get used to alot lower income but the roads here are worth it
5)How much boost with a finely tuned fuel, timing, M/W injection system would be considered safe to run? I want low end response and midband power above all, this is a daily driver
6)I use 10% toluene in my Matrix, buy it by the case so not all that pricey but I really do not want to use it in a daily driver so will stay with 91 cat pee. I can however setup a dual boost program that allows me to up the boost, retune the timing and fuel with the flip of a switch for higher octane days, I do not think this to wise on the 2.5 from what I have learned so far, maybe later if I installed the STI block I can run 20% to get a 5 point gain in octane or run race fuel, etc, but then again, with lower compression can tune without it or high low settings, hmmm, sounds like more work ahead when the time comes, cool!
So, my questions for now:
a) How much boost can a moderate mileage, fully tuned stock 2.5 Forester take with the above mentioned ideas?
b) What turbo if one is ultimately best?
c) What turbos if resonable to gowith a twin setup, affordable and proper size, etc?
d) Follow what has been done and live with it or do it a bit differently? (to the best of my knowledge, could all have been done before, let me know if so please).
Thanks for reading through this mini book and I hope I make some kind of sense."
Rick
02-23-2004 | 04:27 PM
#4
Registered User
iTrader: (12)
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,369
From: Reno, NV
Car Info: 1993/2000/2001 GF4 mostly red
What year is your Forester? If it is a SOHC EJ25 model, then your engine is identical to the RS motor from 2000 and up. You can use any and all turbo parts, kits, and mod info for those cars. Search for RSt" "RS-T" and read all the threads in this forum for a wealth of info.
Sorry for not seeing this before.
Sorry for not seeing this before.
02-23-2004 | 07:26 PM
#5
Big Baller
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,821
From: Washington
Car Info: 93 BG5, 00&01 GM6, 06LGT, 07STi
Yeah I don't know what happened. I didn't see it either.
wierd. I check this forum everyday.
Well, BAN is right, anything from a 2.5RS should fit the motor. Exhaust of course, is a bit different and a FMIC piping would be a little different.
But to answer some of your questions and add some other advice.
CAMS CAMS CAMS
they do amazing things for these motors. I run a ludespeed turbo kit (Stage I kit with StageIII turbo). With the only other mods being a lightened flywheel, COBB Cams, and Borla headers I was pulling better times than people with Stage II cars. I was doing that with a trunk full of tools and parts. When I added 550cc injectors, programable MAP sensor and a boost controller I ran my current PB of 13.2@102MPH. That was with a bent camshaft (due to a previous timing belt tensioner failure) and still no intercooler. I did it at 11psi with no det, TONS OF FUEL (they could smell my car in the stands) and some boost timing retard.
I run my car daily on 8lbs of boost and 91/92 oct gas. I just had the local Suby mechanic take it apart and take a look at everything. He said the pistons looked almost brand new with no black carbon deposits. <------- I don't run the cheap gas company's gas.
@8lbs I have about 4 degrees of timing being pulled and I don't experience any detonation. Not quite as rich as before; tuned some of it out.
TURBO
I love the power my turbo can create.
I don't love the lag.
my turbo is a garrett T3/T4 (.63 turbine/.60 compressor) it is NOT a ball bearing turbo. I wish it was.
In my oppinion, a turbo of the same flow characteristics with less lag (ie ball bearings) would be the best turbo for this motor.
Boost is a function of back pressure. My lower back pressure from my headers and 3" exhaust is great for the higher HP numbers but it does increase my lag a bit. I have not yet wrapped my headers to see if it makes a difference. I know it will, though. Maintaining the stock exhaust manifold with net less lag, but lower peak HP numbers. If you plan on AutoX-ing your car then it would probably do you well to leave the stock manifold on there.
Cool thing is that these turbos can be purchased on ebay for about 400 bucks. If you desire less lag, the Stage I turbo had a .60 turbine to give it faster spool time, but the increased back pressure and excessive turbine speed limit the peak HP.
TWIN TURBOS
there have been a couple TT setups out there. Forced Air Tech or somebody has a TT setup. It uses twin GT15's and is capable of over 500 HP. The turbos spool up in the teens to twenties. A crazy ride I can imagine. However, boost control is difficult and boost spikes and creep are apparent with TT kits. Not just that, but they are freaking expensive.
As far as going you own route: I never go with what has already been tried and tested. I always modify and fabricate my own stuff. My ludespeed kit was only a stepping stone for what I've done since then. Tom @ Ludespeed had to make a few things to my requests that weren't normally in the turbo kits.
I would really recommend an aftermarket engine control system (Link or Hydra Nemesis or Unichip or something) if you want to make real power. IF you are happy with 280 crank HP then don't worry about it, the stock ECU works fine.
that's my input.
Later,
Dominic
One last thing:
DO NOT USE A FACTORY WRX TURBO!
They suck. The turbine is so small they can't create crap for HP because the back pressure is so high that the engine is VERY prone to detonation. If you wanted to use WRX components, I would say to get the new turbo Forester cross member, WRX headers and an FP green turbo (the smaller 7cm) with a FMIC. That would be an awesome setup in my opinion.
wierd. I check this forum everyday.
Well, BAN is right, anything from a 2.5RS should fit the motor. Exhaust of course, is a bit different and a FMIC piping would be a little different.
But to answer some of your questions and add some other advice.
CAMS CAMS CAMS
they do amazing things for these motors. I run a ludespeed turbo kit (Stage I kit with StageIII turbo). With the only other mods being a lightened flywheel, COBB Cams, and Borla headers I was pulling better times than people with Stage II cars. I was doing that with a trunk full of tools and parts. When I added 550cc injectors, programable MAP sensor and a boost controller I ran my current PB of 13.2@102MPH. That was with a bent camshaft (due to a previous timing belt tensioner failure) and still no intercooler. I did it at 11psi with no det, TONS OF FUEL (they could smell my car in the stands) and some boost timing retard.
I run my car daily on 8lbs of boost and 91/92 oct gas. I just had the local Suby mechanic take it apart and take a look at everything. He said the pistons looked almost brand new with no black carbon deposits. <------- I don't run the cheap gas company's gas.
@8lbs I have about 4 degrees of timing being pulled and I don't experience any detonation. Not quite as rich as before; tuned some of it out.
TURBO
I love the power my turbo can create.
I don't love the lag.
my turbo is a garrett T3/T4 (.63 turbine/.60 compressor) it is NOT a ball bearing turbo. I wish it was.
In my oppinion, a turbo of the same flow characteristics with less lag (ie ball bearings) would be the best turbo for this motor.
Boost is a function of back pressure. My lower back pressure from my headers and 3" exhaust is great for the higher HP numbers but it does increase my lag a bit. I have not yet wrapped my headers to see if it makes a difference. I know it will, though. Maintaining the stock exhaust manifold with net less lag, but lower peak HP numbers. If you plan on AutoX-ing your car then it would probably do you well to leave the stock manifold on there.
Cool thing is that these turbos can be purchased on ebay for about 400 bucks. If you desire less lag, the Stage I turbo had a .60 turbine to give it faster spool time, but the increased back pressure and excessive turbine speed limit the peak HP.
TWIN TURBOS
there have been a couple TT setups out there. Forced Air Tech or somebody has a TT setup. It uses twin GT15's and is capable of over 500 HP. The turbos spool up in the teens to twenties. A crazy ride I can imagine. However, boost control is difficult and boost spikes and creep are apparent with TT kits. Not just that, but they are freaking expensive.
As far as going you own route: I never go with what has already been tried and tested. I always modify and fabricate my own stuff. My ludespeed kit was only a stepping stone for what I've done since then. Tom @ Ludespeed had to make a few things to my requests that weren't normally in the turbo kits.
I would really recommend an aftermarket engine control system (Link or Hydra Nemesis or Unichip or something) if you want to make real power. IF you are happy with 280 crank HP then don't worry about it, the stock ECU works fine.
that's my input.
Later,
Dominic
One last thing:
DO NOT USE A FACTORY WRX TURBO!
They suck. The turbine is so small they can't create crap for HP because the back pressure is so high that the engine is VERY prone to detonation. If you wanted to use WRX components, I would say to get the new turbo Forester cross member, WRX headers and an FP green turbo (the smaller 7cm) with a FMIC. That would be an awesome setup in my opinion.
Last edited by ImprezaRSX; 02-23-2004 at 07:30 PM.
02-23-2004 | 11:05 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks a bunch guys, great info and I really appreciate your time
I have not bought the car yet so will make sure to get the correct engine!
I already have a brand new Unichip and boost control module for it.
I plan to build most of the system but used parts that are very resonable will do just fine to save some time, can cut to fit anything that does not quite align.
So far I can build this very very low cost, which I need to do as semi-retired, income level is drastically lower than I am used to.
Not into peak power numbers at all, will build for bottom end and midrange, alot more usefull for my needs.
How does a T3/Super 60 sound for a turbo, probably not the best but I have two of them as it is so would be ok I guess to at least test one. Probably to small for higher RPMs though.
I can mod the stock crossmember to save some money, fairly good fabricator, cut out and lowered the rear floor in my Matrix with it was only a few weeks old, no cracks or leaks nearly two years later
Not at all familiar with the FP Green turbo, not sure where to look!
A used BB turbo or rebuilt one may be able to fit into the budget.
Thanks again, really does help me out!
Rick
I have not bought the car yet so will make sure to get the correct engine!
I already have a brand new Unichip and boost control module for it.
I plan to build most of the system but used parts that are very resonable will do just fine to save some time, can cut to fit anything that does not quite align.
So far I can build this very very low cost, which I need to do as semi-retired, income level is drastically lower than I am used to.
Not into peak power numbers at all, will build for bottom end and midrange, alot more usefull for my needs.
How does a T3/Super 60 sound for a turbo, probably not the best but I have two of them as it is so would be ok I guess to at least test one. Probably to small for higher RPMs though.
I can mod the stock crossmember to save some money, fairly good fabricator, cut out and lowered the rear floor in my Matrix with it was only a few weeks old, no cracks or leaks nearly two years later
Not at all familiar with the FP Green turbo, not sure where to look!
A used BB turbo or rebuilt one may be able to fit into the budget.
Thanks again, really does help me out!
Rick
02-24-2004 | 03:03 AM
#7
Big Baller
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,821
From: Washington
Car Info: 93 BG5, 00&01 GM6, 06LGT, 07STi
if you're not into the peak and you want low to midrange:
.60/.60 will work good with the stock exhaust manifold. all you need is a set of custom up and downpipes. Tom will still make'em at 400 bucks for the set. You just gotta ask nice. The T3 super 60 uses the standard ford T3 flanges, right? IF so, it'll bolt right up to these up/dp's.
If you're looking to spend as little as possible, it isn't as cost efficient as some would like to think to use the WRX stuff. If you already have a T3 turbo...
Things I think you'll need:
UP/ DP
Wastegate (unless that's built into the T3 you got) Tom's come with the external wastegate setup.
Oil line to feed turbo
Tap valve cover or run drain to oil pan.
Voltage Clamp (VC2 From Split second)
RRFPR (7:1 from Vortech)
Fuel pump (STi or Walbro- STi is quieter and more reliable)
Charge pipe with BOV (I might have one available real soon!!)
Intake pipe.
Silicon hoses
Hose Clamps.
1/2" Tees for heater core supply (water to turbo)
Boost gauge to see what the hell is going on.
Colder Plugs BKR7ES-11 (NGK)
bunch of hoses and vaccum lines to run wastegate, BOV, Boost gauge, cruise control, RRFPR, PCV (need a 3/8" checkvalve for that too)
Cruise control relocation
conical filter for intake pipe
.60/.60 will work good with the stock exhaust manifold. all you need is a set of custom up and downpipes. Tom will still make'em at 400 bucks for the set. You just gotta ask nice. The T3 super 60 uses the standard ford T3 flanges, right? IF so, it'll bolt right up to these up/dp's.
If you're looking to spend as little as possible, it isn't as cost efficient as some would like to think to use the WRX stuff. If you already have a T3 turbo...
Things I think you'll need:
UP/ DP
Wastegate (unless that's built into the T3 you got) Tom's come with the external wastegate setup.
Oil line to feed turbo
Tap valve cover or run drain to oil pan.
Voltage Clamp (VC2 From Split second)
RRFPR (7:1 from Vortech)
Fuel pump (STi or Walbro- STi is quieter and more reliable)
Charge pipe with BOV (I might have one available real soon!!)
Intake pipe.
Silicon hoses
Hose Clamps.
1/2" Tees for heater core supply (water to turbo)
Boost gauge to see what the hell is going on.
Colder Plugs BKR7ES-11 (NGK)
bunch of hoses and vaccum lines to run wastegate, BOV, Boost gauge, cruise control, RRFPR, PCV (need a 3/8" checkvalve for that too)
Cruise control relocation
conical filter for intake pipe
02-24-2004 | 08:35 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks! I really appreciate the info and your time, again I will be compiling a list of options and parts that will work together and start collecting them as soon as I settle on what car to buy. I have a very clean 2k 5spd Forester with 45k miles I am looking at, old lady owned, perfect condition just about. I like the green exterior but not to fond of tan interior
I know 5spds are not that numerous so will think this one over a bit.
Rick
I will be compiling a list of options and parts that will work together and start collecting them as soon as I settle on what car to buy. I have a very clean 2k 5spd Forester with 45k miles I am looking at, old lady owned, perfect condition just about. I like the green exterior but not to fond of tan interior I know 5spds are not that numerous so will think this one over a bit.Rick
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